Private characters: let's talk about it

[il Tizio]

Premise:
I start this topic after reading the logansam's on jla vs avengers select screen.

This is a subject that I do not understand. Creating a character in mugen and not giving everyone the chance to play it for me is like creating Coca Cola and drinking it alone with my friends because I'm afraid that someone will create Pepsi Cola. I do not want to make controversy. I'm just a player, not a creator and, as I said, it's something I will not understand, but respect.

That said, I imagine private characters are "given" by their creators who, based on trust, decide to let them play with their creations.

So, my question is therefore: is there a way to enter this circle of trust? Is a written declaration required in which I undertake not to disclose certain characters? Is there a list in which I can register for beta? Do I have to give an ID?
I swear, I'm not making irony. I only wish I could play with the game of my dreams.

[riot]

you can try to create a character. and maybe be spotted by the team who interests you. 

[Beto]

The logansan has a society with magus. even if he wanted to, maybe he could not share. In addition, any character can be done by a third party or commissioned. From that list, I wanted x-23. He did not share, I'm doing mine. unfortunately, thanks to unethical people in mugen, the trend, is that more and more people, give up or keep their things private. If you want the chars of logamagus, just pay for what they ask. I saw them asking for $ 2000,000 for shazam. 

[mulambo]

I'm just a player, not a creator

This says it all.

[Arias]

I was fine with private characters when I started mugen and I'm fine now. I don't mind if people like to tease them through videos, that's in their right really. Generally they're just edits and not very good ones whatsoever due to the lack of testers, or testers that don't even know how to test, at times that can be spotted from videos alone.

For a start and from experience I guess (been invited to some full games & other things by people I didn't even know at that moment) if you want to get access to something you have to catch their attention first. If you're good at something, it's less likely they think you would leak anything because you probably know the actual work it takes.

You're not wrong with only wanting to play them really, but if you don't contribute it's hard to gain the trust, after all....if you can genuinely improve their work & show them, they can't help it but accept your help, even if it's just feedback.

[navs41]

Premise:
I start this topic after reading the logansam's on jla vs avengers select screen.

Not exactly the best person when referring to fair use and respect among creators.

Btw, this is Gotham Knights select screen.
http://comicsalliance.com/batman-fighting-game/

I will continue to have a Coca Cola by myself.

[GTAguy]

I still have my own edit chars like Sid, Hein and more. So they won't be released in public and that is my decision.

[il Tizio]

I will continue to have a Coca Cola by myself.

Cheers

This says it all.

Mica tanto

I still have my own edit chars like Sid, Hein and more. So they won't be released in public and that is my decision.

Good for It. Wasnt my focus in the topic

[Rage]

There is no secret society, pass code, or any of that foolishness. Teams are formed from those of like minds that share a vision. This can be said about any team no matter the root. You being a player solely is the reason why you are not part of a team. Beyond like minds, teams also work toward a common goal. You clearly do not have such being a player and its nothing wrong with that, its just you. Myself i hang out on mugen sites and i haven't played mugen in about 10 years. Funny since Im a creator. Never the less i was picked up by team Infinity due to me sharing a similar vision, and common goals, nothing more

As for why private....well you may not understand because you dont create. So the thing about creating is it takes time and passion. With time some creators spend years making characters. rather it being because its a hobby for them or it being a work load that spans a long period. Passion comes with ones love for what they are creating which is the reason they decide to delicate so much time to the character. As you hear about main stream (industry) artist and game developers becoming sick and stressed due to them pushing with work the same happens with mugen. Some of YOUR favorite characters I know where made by those that push through illness and made it worst just so they can share their work with the world. Some creators cherish the work they create because it is a refection of them self, their desires, and dreams. Some even see there work as their children. Some just want share their idea of that character with the world. Look there are numerous reason people decide to do what they do and most of them are very deep and dear to them. When someone come about and skews that character its destroys what ever the reason was they created it, their vision, their story. Out side of the leakers, and thiefs this is a major reason creators go private or just quit.

The Time you can never get back and its like your wasted it when your character is changed. Passion is just a powerful emotion which drives us all no mater the reason and stomping on that hurts in many ways. Its hard to some up; someone stole your children, they shattered your dreams, etc. Someone reasons may seem dumb to you but you have to remember that its important to them. The world doesn't just revolve around you and what you find silly some my see as genius, what you see as ugly is beauty to them. Just because they see it different doesnt make it wrong or any less important.

[Beto]

There is no secret society, pass code, or any of that foolishness. Teams are formed from those of like minds that share a vision. This can be said about any team no matter the root. You being a player solely is the reason why you are not part of a team. Beyond like minds, teams also work toward a common goal. You clearly do not have such being a player and its nothing wrong with that, its just you. Myself i hang out on mugen sites and i haven't played mugen in about 10 years. Funny since Im a creator. Never the less i was picked up by team Infinity due to me sharing a similar vision, and common goals, nothing more

As for why private....well you may not understand because you dont create. So the thing about creating is it takes time and passion. With time some creators spend years making characters. rather it being because its a hobby for them or it being a work load that spans a long period. Passion comes with ones love for what they are creating which is the reason they decide to delicate so much time to the character. As you hear about main stream (industry) artist and game developers becoming sick and stressed due to them pushing with work the same happens with mugen. Some of YOUR favorite characters I know where made by those that push through illness and made it worst just so they can share their work with the world. Some creators cherish the work they create because it is a refection of them self, their desires, and dreams. Some even see there work as their children. Some just want share their idea of that character with the world. Look there are numerous reason people decide to do what they do and most of them are very deep and dear to them. When someone come about and skews that character its destroys what ever the reason was they created it, their vision, their story. Out side of the leakers, and thiefs this is a major reason creators go private or just quit.

The Time you can never get back and its like your wasted it when your character is changed. Passion is just a powerful emotion which drives us all no mater the reason and stomping on that hurts in many ways. Its hard to some up; someone stole your children, they shattered your dreams, etc. Someone reasons may seem dumb to you but you have to remember that its important to them. They world doesn't just revolve around you and what you find silly some my see as genius, what you see as ugly is beauty to them. Just because they see it different doesnt make it wrong or any less important.

Perfect 

[dev.]

Everyone that stole something at one point should read what Rage said. 

[sky79]

How about a shorter, more productive version of that speech.

If you're telling others via public forum about said characters, its not "Private". It's just an author being a jerk.

What you can do about it?

 Learn. Grow. Harness that frustration and make a public WIP of the same character, better than the private character.

And Trust No One With It.

[verz36]

 going private is going to be another way for a creator to not allow others to take their fun away. no matter if you see it right or wrong, what matters is that the creator could keep making his dream characters. its sad that it has come to this but some times you take the best choices you are given. nobody is entitle to anything other people create. is like many people around are saying ( if you dont want your character stolen and or edited dont share it) and thats what going private means.

 the lazy or lack of talent people always find excuses for ruining others desire to create. the same old, you stole from marvel so i can steal from you gets old. or the you are not a true creator because u edit from capcom characters is another one they use a lot. every artist that worked at capcom, snk and others got paid for their work and time. mugen creators dont get paid for their time, they edit, create and share for fun. all the materials most mugen creator use to make their characters is out there so why not use them instead of ruining the fun from a creator by taking his work. a lot of time creators do their own work from scratch too, a leg, an arm, a whole torso, a set of legs and even a whole sprite too. many artist got different methods.. even fx sometimes are original and still others take them.

 so what do you think its best for a creator that has lost his motivation? to quit or go private? some will quit but others wont allow others to take their fun away and going private will allow them to continue their work and have fun doing something they love. maybe they just share among friends that can be trusted and this can start been a trend in mugen nowadays.

[mulambo]

Mica tanto

E mi sa di sì, invece.
E' naturale per chi non crea ma gioca e basta, pretendere che ci siano sempre più chars a disposizione così da aggiungere sempre più chars alla propria collezione, compulsivamente.
Se invece di obiettare, ti metti un giorno o due a "sfriccunari" con il codice o a "spritare" qualcosa, ti accorgi che ci vuole tempo e fatica.
Fino a quando non crei qualcosa di tuo, rimarrai sempre nell'insoddisfazione di pretendere, senza comprendere.
scusami, ma questa è la brutale verità. 

Il punto della discussione è questo: "ragazzi io non capisco perchè alcuni creatori si tengono i personaggi per sè".
La risposta è multipla, quella che ti ho fornito prima è:
- "vuoi comprendere i creatori di personaggi? immedesimati in loro. prova a creare qualcosa. vediamo quanto ti sale la febbre del copyright anche solo facendo uno sbiadito edit di ryu (cosa molto comune). "
Un'altra risposta potrebbe essere:
- " perchè in giro c'è gente che lucra non solo con la fatica altrui, ma sfruttando un programma tendenzialmente non-commerciale. "
Un'altra risposta ancora:
- " perchè un tempo era tabù inviolabile il fatto che il creatore di un chars avesse tutto il diritto di non far hostare la propria creazione su un altro sito, oggi chiunque può caricare la roba altrui dovunque a prescindere dai permessi ricevuti (sbandierando comunque il pretesto della preservazione, o della condivisione internettiana)".

Di qui in poi si può solo procedere per polemica... o per esame di coscienza. 


English translation: you want to play the game of your dreams? make it on your own, don't rely on others. or else you're playing the game of somebody else's dream. Got it?

[il Tizio]

I thank you for your feedback and Ur points of view... I suppose i Will try after all' these years to give a try ti create something mine

[shanri]

let me start by commending and thanking all the artists and coders who so generously share your work with the community.  no matter your skill level, you are mugen.  there would not be a mugen community without this altruistic mindset.  so, thank you all.
now for my rant...

Although each creator has the right to release or make private, and the right to create or not create,  I think there is a serious flaw in thinking a private creation is  a justifiable option. 

firstly many creators are editing characters created by for profit companies such as capcom, marvel, etc....  these creators wish to edit these IP's as if they are opensource, yet feel that their derivative creations should be closed source.

secondly, if every creator had the same mentality of privatization, nobody would have a robust roster of characters.  many of these creators put years into their characters, and it is only through more than a decade of shared works that this group project known as mugen has become as great as it has.  it has required of hard work from great artists and coders, and the generosity to share their work.  but i think the interest and enthusiasm of the less talented fans among us also fuels the greatness of mugen.  without a fanbase to enthusiastically support the creators, there would not be much of the surrounding infrastructure, such as forums, and warehousing sites etc... it is the exuberant community that in turn brings more people to this space, some of which will be the great creators of the future.  there is a small minority who think that they are the end all be all of mugen creation, and they try to convince others to join their point of view, so they can further justify it.  its a shame.  there is no use creating, if there is noone to enjoy it

third, the internet has changed the way that we are able to share our ideas and work together, and mugen is a side effect of this.  mugen is intended to be an opensource project, where a community comes together and creates the basis to homebrew your own 2d fighter.  the laws of supply and demand apply.  good creations rise to the top and the lesser creations fill unused collections or warehousing websites.  there are by far more unfinished projects and bad creations than there are truly roster worthy characters.  but to those who create fantastic characters, they have a certain level of fame and respect among the mugen community.  there are creators whos works fill many rosters and are enjoyed by the majority of the community.  creators like loganir, zvitor, oillusionista, zox, the infinity team, the scruffy dragon team and others have made mugen what it is today.  some of these creators no longer create, and that is sad, but their creations live on, and their notoriety in the community extends into perpetuity.  the creators who tease their creations, but insist on keeping them private, will not only be maligned, but will fade into obscurity, because they will not leave behind the quality characters that fuel interest in mugen.  their characters will eventually be lost to memory, while the shared characters will live on forever in warehouse sites, innumerable fan rosters, and eventually blockchain mugen.

fourth, not one of the creators who deem their works so sacred as to keep private are playing exclusively with their own works.  all of them use other creators characters, stages and screen packs to help see their vision through. 

fifth, the small faction of creators pushing for private characters, while all are good creators, few are as good as they think they are.  (i can only think of one that is among the best mugen has ever seen)  they want to bully and be negative about new creators, but they all had to learn the craft at some point to.  it is through positive support that these "not so good" creators can grow into good or even great creators.  this small faction of detractors will even pick apart and talk down about the nicer characters, not celebrating the quality, but seeking out the flaws and exploiting them.  while this faction is compiled of quality creators, none (maybe one) is the best mugen has ever had.

i do sympathize with the creators who are upset when their works are used without their permission.  sometimes their works are improved by those who come after, but often they are degraded by cheap edits and palette swaps.  however, i feel that it is a small minority who are not following the mugen code of conduct in respecting other peoples works.  and i also feel that it is a small minority hoarding their creations as private.  i look forward to years more of great mugen creations from the great creators who still exist, and so generously share their work with the community.  i am tired of the elitism which exists in a certain small faction of creators.  and i notice it affects how their works are received.  they used to post their works, and the community would be excited for the eventual release, and the comment sections would fill pages.  now if they post their private works, they are met with little fanfare, and they must rely on each other to pat each other on the backs for bolstering their sense of accomplishment.  the bitter selfish road is much lonelier than the magnanimous route.  mugen extends beyond all of us, and will be around long after this kerfuffle has sussed itself out.

[sky79]

going private is going to be another way for a creator to not allow others to take their fun away.

No one can "Take" anything you make unless you put it out there. Unless you're talking about hacking...... Which is illegal.

If it's private, then no one knows or should know about it.

you stole from marvel so i can steal from you gets old.

False argument, Mugen "Steals" nothing from anyone. No more than you putting pencil to paper and drawing Micky and showing it to your friends. It's fan-art. The difference is when you charge MONEY for it. Thats when things get dangerous........ for all of us.

If you don't want anyone to have it/change it/post it/share it, don't put it on the internet.

I thank you for your feedback and Ur points of view... I suppose i Will try after all' these years to give a try ti create something mine

Some of us are here for the right reasons. Don't expect perfection from yourself. It's your first character, so dont be afraid to ask the forum for help. My code skills are limited, but I'm not a bad spriter. If you need tips, drop me a line. 

Welcome to M.U.G.E.N

[Rage]

.

If you don't want anyone to have it/change it/post it/share it, don't put it on the internet.

and its this mentality that is the root cause of people quieting, etc. 

[mulambo]

I think there is a serious flaw in thinking a private creation is  a justifiable option. 

it's more than justifiable.
it's legit.
nobody forces you to put on the internet what you've made offline.
if you think differently, then that's communism, .

people are free to hold for themselves or share with limited people what they create.

all the flags people use to pretend they're not just a bunch of leechers can be burnt.

there's no "serious flaw" in this. then you're pretending any commercial game has a "serious flaw" because it's playable only to those who pay for it.

it's legit, you want something good? pay for it. no pain, no gain.

nobody rides for free.

I don't mind elitism, if elitism doesn't influence or force people into acting in a wrong way. People can keep what they want for themselves without being snob at the same time.

The "community" nonsense you hear about or use to justify the necessity of all chars being shared... sorry, but it sounds like hypocrisy or really superficial thinking. 

[O Ilusionista]

Honestly speaking, I don't see a problem with people going private (I plan to do the same soon).

[Colosse]

Personaly, privacy becomes criminal when someone shares pictures & / or video of his creation before to say : "don't request it's private"....

Of course, if you share pics / videos obviously people will ask for it.

Except this kind of attitude you can make something for you only if you wish... that's my opinion.

[sky79]

and its this mentality that is the root cause of people quieting, etc. 

How so?

If no one knows someone's working on a character till the wip's released, how do you know they actually quit?

And whats wrong with working on a character in private? No one has to tell you what they're working on.

[shanri]

it's more than justifiable.
it's legit.
nobody forces you to put on the internet what you've made offline.
if you think differently, then that's communism, .

i feel like you didnt read my whole post, and just jumped on this one statement, sort of out of context.  that may be my fault for writing too much.
 
i do think that the creators are justified to do what they want with their fan art.  not every piece of fan art gets posted to the internet, but i do think in the realm of mugen, it is a strange, selfish, short sighted approach.

when elecbyte created mugen, he did not charge for it, he released it as an opensource system.  i believe that this illustrates the creators intent for it to be a group project.  when fighter factory was created, it wasnt marketed for profit... it was offered free to the collective.  this isnt communism... its something new being spawned from the internet.  im not sure if the sharing society aspects are yet defined in political theory, but it is far closer to agorism than it is to communism.

also, every one of the pro privacy creators, at some point, started without skill and knowledge in mugen.  they had to learn and improve their spriting and coding.  they used the creations of others, freely shared with them (elecbyte and fighter factory first and foremost), however, now, in turn, they do not want to share the creations which they stood on the shoulders of others to create.  its a shame to see this "im taking my toys and going home" approach to something that was shared so freely with them.

without sharing, there is no mugen.  its a shame to lose quality creators to their own vanity, but others will take their place and mugen will continue on. 

[shanri]

there's no "serious flaw" in this. then you're pretending any commercial game has a "serious flaw" because it's playable only to those who pay for it.

it's legit, you want something good? pay for it. no pain, no gain.

nobody rides for free.

The difference with a commercial game is drastic in comparison to a mugen character.
a commercial game must first design or license a propert. (marvel, dbz etc...)   $$$$$$$$
they need to design or license a gaming engine $$$$$$
they need to hire artists, designers, story writers, coders, etc. $$$$$$$
they hire more artists to design packaging and have the product produced (dvd, booklet, case)  $$$$$$
they then market their product to the crowd to entice purchase, their success is based on supply and demand $$$$$$
they charge a small percentage of the cost of their project, deferred among a, hopefully large, crowd.  this is an agreed upon structure with many gamers waiting to buy such products.  (their game could cost tens of thousands to millions, depending.)

i do believe that this mode is becoming outdated, and we see it as the companies lose their monopoly of distribution to the interntet.  we also see many home made games and group projects (like mugen) beginning to steal marketshare.

in contrast, mugen creators who do not own the properties that they are creating, have no expectation of profiting.  if they try to sell an unlicensed product, they are in err of the law.  they can ask for donations (which i generously make to quality creators) but they have no expectation of profit.
the agreed upon structure of mugen is that it is group sourced, without cost, and as high or low quality as the community makes it.

it is completely acceptable for people to make their own private characters, but why show them on community sites.  who really cares about their selfish private creations.  they use the shared creations of the community, yet want to horde their own creations to themselves.

[shanri]

I don't mind elitism, if elitism doesn't influence or force people into acting in a wrong way. People can keep what they want for themselves without being snob at the same time.

The "community" nonsense you hear about or use to justify the necessity of all chars being shared... sorry, but it sounds like hypocrisy or really superficial thinking. 

elitism most definitely leads to people acting the wrong way.  it leads people to a false sense of superiority.  in mugen it makes creators believe their works are sacred and for them alone.  i personally would not edit another persons creation without permission, however, many do not see it as i do.  it is part of mugen.  again, all of these creators are using other peoples work.  there is not one of us who only fills our rosters with our own creations... every character, stage and screenpack.  who composes their own music, or makes their own sound effects?  do these creators draw every sprite from scratch and write every line of code?  if not, their sacred characters are, intrinsically, a group effort.  it is a sense of elitism that lets them overlook these details and place an unrealistic value in their creations and their sole ownership of the efforts therein. 

as for hypocrisy, i dont believe that i gave enough details in my contributions for you to make this claim.  (as for superficial, i dont know how that could be claimed)  i donate to quality creators if they have a site with a donation button.  i have commissioned many projects from top artists, all released publicly.  i have contributed sprites to other projects.  i have my own projects (i have been teaching myself the coding for years).  i take what little free time i have to move these projects forward.  i hope to make all public sooner than later.  the more people who enjoy my works, the more valuable my time involved becomes.  i hope that anything i create is taken and made better.  if my works can spawn more and better creations, that is the best thing possible. 
to me, that is the essence of mugen. 
you want to deride the community aspects of mugen, but remember, you are making these claims on one of many mugen community forums.  a place where people come together and share their works.

[shanri]

Honestly speaking, I don't see a problem with people going private (I plan to do the same soon).

i am sorry to hear that.  you will be missed.  you have made many great contributions to mugen.  Thank you for them all.

[navs41]

let me start by commending and thanking all the artists and coders who so generously share your work with the community.  no matter your skill level, you are mugen.  there would not be a mugen community without this altruistic mindset.  so, thank you all.

It's not entirely altruistic.
I plan to get credit for what I do.

Your definition of mugen includes all the leeches and thieves too. Think about it.

Although each creator has the right to release or make private, and the right to create or not create,  I think there is a serious flaw in thinking a private creation is  a justifiable option. 

Let's not mix "private" categories.

There are chars which are worked by the original artist/team, and the "rehashed/updated by" versions that sadly pop around later.
The first category upsets kids that can't wait - people without REAL responsibilities. The second category is the scum of the community (save for those who actually bother to get permission).

firstly many creators are editing characters created by for profit companies such as capcom, marvel, etc....  these creators wish to edit these IP's as if they are opensource, yet feel that their derivative creations should be closed source.

They are open source. Scruffydragon wrote letters to Marvel, DC, Capcom and others asking about such permissions.
You just haven't been around enough to know the companies consider them fan art - as long as there's no commerce involved, there's no problem.

without a fanbase to enthusiastically support the creators, there would not be much of the surrounding infrastructure, such as forums, and warehousing sites etc... it is the exuberant community that in turn brings more people to this space, some of which will be the great creators of the future.  there is a small minority who think that they are the end all be all of mugen creation, and they try to convince others to join their point of view, so they can further justify it.  its a shame.  there is no use creating, if there is noone to enjoy it

I take it that for a fanbase to support a creator successfully, the fans need to know who actually did what.
And leeches don't give credit. They steal the creation and the credit. And the real artist who busted hours in sprite and code gets nothing.

mugen is intended to be an opensource project, where a community comes together and creates the basis to homebrew your own 2d fighter.  the laws of supply and demand apply. good creations rise to the top and the lesser creations fill unused collections or warehousing websites.  there are by far more unfinished projects and bad creations than there are truly roster worthy characters.  but to those who create fantastic characters, they have a certain level of fame and respect among the mugen community.  there are creators whos works fill many rosters and are enjoyed by the majority of the community.  creators like loganir, zvitor, oillusionista, zox, the infinity team, the scruffy dragon team and others have made mugen what it is today.

Zox? You serious about it?
People like Zox drove Loganir away from mugen. Did you join the community yesterday?

they want to bully and be negative about new creators, but they all had to learn the craft at some point to.  it is through positive support that these "not so good" creators can grow into good or even great creators.  this small faction of detractors will even pick apart and talk down about the nicer characters, not celebrating the quality, but seeking out the flaws and exploiting them.  while this faction is compiled of quality creators, none (maybe one) is the best mugen has ever had.

Old dogs have tried to teach the newcomers how to behave.
Unfortunately, the age range and maturity in the community is wide. The lazy choose to steal and they never look back.

Zox, Logansam, Malevka... they are all here and still around. None has ever acknowledged stealing someone else's sprite work.

i do sympathize with the creators who are upset when their works are used without their permission.  sometimes their works are improved by those who come after, but often they are degraded by cheap edits and palette swaps.  however, i feel that it is a small minority who are not following the mugen code of conduct in respecting other peoples works.  and i also feel that it is a small minority hoarding their creations as private.  i look forward to years more of great mugen creations from the great creators who still exist, and so generously share their work with the community.  i am tired of the elitism which exists in a certain small faction of creators.  and i notice it affects how their works are received.  they used to post their works, and the community would be excited for the eventual release, and the comment sections would fill pages.  now if they post their private works, they are met with little fanfare, and they must rely on each other to pat each other on the backs for bolstering their sense of accomplishment.  the bitter selfish road is much lonelier than the magnanimous route.  mugen extends beyond all of us, and will be around long after this kerfuffle has sussed itself out.

If you really are into the high road, create something, post, have it stolen and then accept it.
Else, you are just talking about risks you ain't taking, and consequences that do not affect you.

[Rage]

How so?

If no one knows someone's working on a character till the wip's released, how do you know they actually quit?

And whats wrong with working on a character in private? No one has to tell you what they're working on.

I may have missed read your statement. At glance i thought you saying it was ok with others to take, change peoples work but i see what you meant after rereading it.....

[mulambo]

i feel like you didnt read my whole post, and just jumped on this one statement

well, , if somebody pooped on the top of a cake and served it to you, would you remove the top of it and eat the rest of the cake? I wouldn't, .

I simply don't read the rest of the extremely long post because I know it's infected. Nothing good.

You may have all the reason, but the only thing you're trying to accomplish is to be "convincing".

[shanri]

It's not entirely altruistic.
I plan to get credit for what I do.

Your definition of mugen includes all the leeches and thieves too. Think about it.

Let's not mix "private" categories.

There are chars which are worked by the original artist/team, and the "rehashed/updated by" versions that sadly pop around later.
The first category upsets kids that can't wait - people without REAL responsibilities. The second category is the scum of the community (save for those who actually bother to get permission).

I take it that for a fanbase to support a creator successfully, the fans need to know who actually did what.
And leeches don't give credit. They steal the creation and the credit. And the real artist who busted hours in sprite and code gets nothing.

i agree. there needs to be a code of conduct.  asking permission and giving credit are important.  there is a deficit of respect in many instances.  giving credit is an easy way to solve many issues.  it amazes me that it is so often neglected, considering it is an easy and cheap appeasement.  (not to mention shows proper respect to the original creator)

They are open source. Scruffydragon wrote letters to Marvel, DC, Capcom and others asking about such permissions.
You just haven't been around enough to know the companies consider them fan art - as long as there's no commerce involved, there's no problem.

i was not aware of the letters sent.  and you claim reply was received?  that is something they should post on their site.  while interesting, my point is still that somebody else created the initial work.  many of these works were built on bases created by somebody else.  i just think there is an irony to being upset when your work is used by others, when that work was predicated on the work of others.  also, i dont think marvel or capcom are ready (or confident enough) to set court precident yet, but the second this begins to encroach on the bottom line, they will.  we have already seen gaming companies beginning to come after the fan arena.  rom sites are being shut down in quick succession.  the homemade ocarina of time on the unreal engine received cease and desist, as did the homemade unreal castlevania.  i believe that the use of game components is still legally murkier than you make it out.

Zox? You serious about it?
People like Zox drove Loganir away from mugen. Did you join the community yesterday?

Old dogs have tried to teach the newcomers how to behave.
Unfortunately, the age range and maturity in the community is wide. The lazy choose to steal and they never look back.

Zox, Logansam, Malevka... they are all here and still around. None has ever acknowledged stealing someone else's sprite work.

i included zox because of his fantastic hand drawn sprites.  he creates beautiful works.  i am only tangentially familiar with the negative points you bring up.  loganir was a terrible loss for mugen.  his works are still among the best.  as for using sprites and not acknowledging it, this should not be the practice.  i cannot defend those actions, but i do lament when the inappropriate minority costs the devoted majority future works.

If you really are into the high road, create something, post, have it stolen and then accept it.
Else, you are just talking about risks you ain't taking, and consequences that do not affect you.

you may be right.  we will see if my sentiment changes when this happens.  i have commissioned characters and seen them reappropriated, which caused me no issue.  i have donated sprites to project that did not achieve the quality i had hoped, i maintained my emotions.  i do recognize that those are both different scenarios than you speak of, but with some similarities.  i have a series of WIPs i hope to release soon.  my anticipation is to release them into the wild, and accept that they are then out of my hands.  the original will remain unaltered, however it will then belong to the community and future iterations will be out of my control.  my position may change when it becomes reality and not mere theory.  we shall see.

anyhow, i appreciate your rebuttal.  you make good points from different perspectives.  i maintain my view, however, that if everyone privatized their works, we would not have mugen.  the intent, as shown by the opensource, free release, was for a group work project.  just how i see things.  i do think mugen would be better with more respect for the work that others put in.   those who take without giving back are legion, but i think that is just the natural dynamic of groups.  again... thanks for the discourse.

[metamutant]

I will never understand how some people can bite the hand of those that feed them, and then complain about the consequences. This is simple, creators release free content and some only ask that their work are not used without permission. If these creators' wishes are not respected then eventually they will quit or go private. There are only a handful are high quality dc/marvel creators, especially those that make characters new to mugen. So either creators are respected or mugen dies a slow death of palettes swaps and horrible, lazy, and bugs filled edits. Why upset the people who are giving you free content to entertain yourselves with? There is no good answer to this question.

 

[Rage]

I will never understand how some people can bite the hand of those that feed them, and then complain about the consequences. This is simple, creators release free content and some only ask that their work are not used without permission. If these creators' wishes are not respected then eventually they will quit or go private. There are only a handful are high quality dc/marvel creators, especially those that make characters new to mugen. So either creators are respected or mugen dies a slow death of palettes swaps and horrible, lazy, and bugs filled edits. Why upset the people who are giving you free content to entertain yourselves with? There is no good answer to this question.