HOBGOBLIN is getting an upgrade , DEMOGOBLIN ????

[DARKTALBAIN]

Wow, I've been away for a few weeks, and already we've got some real talent coming to this community!  Can't wait to see Hobgoblin!  All we need is a Demogoblin now, and we're all set....

There will be a palette for demogoblin included with my Hobgoblin . He will also have either a helper with Demogoblin or a Hyper where he turns into Demogoblin & does some nasty stuff ! 

[DARKTALBAIN]

SpiderMew pretty much answered for me, he seems to be good at answering correctly for other people xD

Anyways, I made a small sprite-demo to show what I meant (Hope you don't mind)



I even left in the palette comparison colors for use... if you felt like it anyway.

Certain shots you will see the face & others you won't . On that side shot I like the face better exsposed . I have spent of time this weekend redoing sprites because I thought some of them looked bad . I my cable modem was down , so I didn't waste time browsing the internet . So I did get done . I also took time to totally revamp the Poison Ivy I started awhile back . She now will look more like the Jim Lee Ivy from hush . I'll reveal her in some time once I get her to look exactly how I want .

[DARKTALBAIN]

Thought I'd put this message out there for my bud. DarkTalbain mentioned his cable modem was down and that it won't be back up for a few days, believe he said Thursday. So, he'll most likely be gone for a few days. Am sure he'll have plenty of new stuff when he comes back though.

Thanx for filling in here Batzarro . I complained so much they moved up the service call one day & I am up & running now . They put all new lines outside my house so I shouldn't experience any more problems ! I have redone all the Hobgoblin sprites , so they look different once again . Can't reveal anything , until Alexziq gets rid of my background problems . As I posted I put Poison Ivy on the shelf awhile back , but I did to her this weekend to more or less compliment your Harley in the Jim Lee Hush style ! Keep up all your good work on Harley !!!   

[.Batzarro.]

Thought I'd put this message out there for my bud. DarkTalbain mentioned his cable modem was down and that it won't be back up for a few days, believe he said Thursday. So, he'll most likely be gone for a few days. Am sure he'll have plenty of new stuff when he comes back though.

Thanx for filling in here Batzarro . I complained so much they moved up the service call one day & I am up & running now . They put all new lines outside my house so I shouldn't experience any more problems ! I have redone all the Hobgoblin sprites , so they look different once again . Can't reveal anything , until Alexziq gets rid of my background problems . As I posted I put Poison Ivy on the shelf awhile back , but I did to her this weekend to more or less compliment your Harley in the Jim Lee Hush style ! Keep up all your good work on Harley !!!   

No prob, man. I'm real glad that the Arkham Inmates are getting some stuff for them done now. Alex is almost done with his Joker, I'm half-way (sprite wise) done on my Harley, more or less. Now you're restarting your Ivy. Maybe we should just start our own GK Project.

[DARKTALBAIN]

Thought I'd put this message out there for my bud. DarkTalbain mentioned his cable modem was down and that it won't be back up for a few days, believe he said Thursday. So, he'll most likely be gone for a few days. Am sure he'll have plenty of new stuff when he comes back though.

Thanx for filling in here Batzarro . I complained so much they moved up the service call one day & I am up & running now . They put all new lines outside my house so I shouldn't experience any more problems ! I have redone all the Hobgoblin sprites , so they look different once again . Can't reveal anything , until Alexziq gets rid of my background problems . As I posted I put Poison Ivy on the shelf awhile back , but I did to her this weekend to more or less compliment your Harley in the Jim Lee Hush style ! Keep up all your good work on Harley !!!   

No prob, man. I'm real glad that the Arkham Inmates are getting some stuff for them done now. Alex is almost done with his Joker, I'm half-way (sprite wise) done on my Harley, more or less. Now you're restarting your Ivy. Maybe we should just start our own GK Project.

OMG , I can't believe you just said that ?  Don't let a certain somebody see that ! I kind of thought that's what we were trying to do ?


 

[.Batzarro.]

Thought I'd put this message out there for my bud. DarkTalbain mentioned his cable modem was down and that it won't be back up for a few days, believe he said Thursday. So, he'll most likely be gone for a few days. Am sure he'll have plenty of new stuff when he comes back though.

Thanx for filling in here Batzarro . I complained so much they moved up the service call one day & I am up & running now . They put all new lines outside my house so I shouldn't experience any more problems ! I have redone all the Hobgoblin sprites , so they look different once again . Can't reveal anything , until Alexziq gets rid of my background problems . As I posted I put Poison Ivy on the shelf awhile back , but I did to her this weekend to more or less compliment your Harley in the Jim Lee Hush style ! Keep up all your good work on Harley !!!   

No prob, man. I'm real glad that the Arkham Inmates are getting some stuff for them done now. Alex is almost done with his Joker, I'm half-way (sprite wise) done on my Harley, more or less. Now you're restarting your Ivy. Maybe we should just start our own GK Project.

OMG , I can't believe you just said that ?  Don't let a certain somebody see that ! I kind of thought that's what we were trying to do ?

Haha. Well, I'm not sure if we are or not, but either way, it's not like "they" have any rights over the GK characters. So, "they" can bee-otch and moan however much they want, but I'm making characters everyone can use without any drama.

[DARKTALBAIN]

Thought I'd put this message out there for my bud. DarkTalbain mentioned his cable modem was down and that it won't be back up for a few days, believe he said Thursday. So, he'll most likely be gone for a few days. Am sure he'll have plenty of new stuff when he comes back though.

Thanx for filling in here Batzarro . I complained so much they moved up the service call one day & I am up & running now . They put all new lines outside my house so I shouldn't experience any more problems ! I have redone all the Hobgoblin sprites , so they look different once again . Can't reveal anything , until Alexziq gets rid of my background problems . As I posted I put Poison Ivy on the shelf awhile back , but I did to her this weekend to more or less compliment your Harley in the Jim Lee Hush style ! Keep up all your good work on Harley !!!   

No prob, man. I'm real glad that the Arkham Inmates are getting some stuff for them done now. Alex is almost done with his Joker, I'm half-way (sprite wise) done on my Harley, more or less. Now you're restarting your Ivy. Maybe we should just start our own GK Project.

OMG , I can't believe you just said that ?  Don't let a certain somebody see that ! I kind of thought that's what we were trying to do ?

Haha. Well, I'm not sure if we are or not, but either way, it's not like "they" have any rights over the GK characters. So, "they" can bee-otch and moan however much they want, but I'm making characters everyone can use without any drama.

I'm just trying to do the same , my friend . I'm sure this whole Gotham thing will get us b***hed at though ...
I am a huge Batman , Justice League , & Spiderman fan . That's what my characters will revolve around . I think it's ridiculous if someone doesn't want us to do Batman's rogues gallery !

[Alexziq]

I dont know Nothing about nothing.

[.Batzarro.]

Yea, I mean, I'm not trying to be disrespectful or rude and definitely not trying to start any drama here. However, it does not matter to me who started what, anyone can make whoever/whatever they feel so like making and no one has the right to say no. If they get mad, that's their own deal. We will make whatever we want for the better of the community as a whole.

I dont know Nothing about nothing.

Pfft. Right.

[dl316bh]

I doubt anything would be caused. After all, there are doubles of the same character in different styles all over. Besides, the Gotham Knights project is cancelled, so why anyone would be bothered to begin with is beyond me.

Sometimes I think you guys think far less of "them" then you should. "They" aren't that bad, though the checkered past might cause some to believe otherwise. XD

All in all, what's been shown thus far looks spectacular. On a side note though, I think Hobgoblin and Demogoblin are seperate characters. I'm not up to date on my Spider-Man mythos (I'm more of a Batman buff), but I seem to recall Demogoblin being completely seperate. In fact, I recall him distinctly from that big Spidey book crossover back in the nineties, Maximum Carnage.

Just mentioning, because I've heard it said that this was kind of a Hobgoblin but references to Demogoblin, which made me double take. It's possible I could be wrong though. Again, I'm not up to date on my Spidey mythos, and there were so many different Hobgoblins that I'm not sure we ever did find out who the original was.

Oh, and all that aside, all I know is that I see an Azreal in someone's signature, and that makes me smile. Jean Paul never gets any love. There was one for the Gotham Knights project once, but that dropped off the map. DX

DC needs to bring back Azreal.

[DARKTALBAIN]

I doubt anything would be caused. After all, there are doubles of the same character in different styles all over. Besides, the Gotham Knights project is cancelled, so why anyone would be bothered to begin with is beyond me.

Sometimes I think you guys think far less of "them" then you should. "They" aren't that bad, though the checkered past might cause some to believe otherwise. XD

All in all, what's been shown thus far looks spectacular. On a side note though, I think Hobgoblin and Demogoblin are seperate characters. I'm not up to date on my Spider-Man mythos (I'm more of a Batman buff), but I seem to recall Demogoblin being completely seperate. In fact, I recall him distinctly from that big Spidey book crossover back in the nineties, Maximum Carnage.

Just mentioning, because I've heard it said that this was kind of a Hobgoblin but references to Demogoblin, which made me double take. It's possible I could be wrong though. Again, I'm not up to date on my Spidey mythos, and there were so many different Hobgoblins that I'm not sure we ever did find out who the original was.

Oh, and all that aside, all I know is that I see an Azreal in someone's signature, and that makes me smile. Jean Paul never gets any love. There was one for the Gotham Knights project once, but that dropped off the map. DX

DC needs to bring back Azreal.

Let's go over one thing at a time . I don't think badly of them at all . As a matter a fact , I asked someone over there to use something in a Hobgoblin intro & he , I quote "gave me his blessing" . Now I don't know if I am going to do that or not , I may have changed my mind on that intro anyway . To the next individual . I am actually cool with that certain batman creator . But he did give someone else some problems for making batman characters . We'll see what happens . Like Batzarro said , we will make what we want for the better of the community .

Hobgoblin & Demogoblin are 2 seperate characters . Hobgoblin was turning evil & split into the Demogoblin . My Hobgoblin is based more on when he was starting to turn evil , but he thought he was a "savior" . He took the mask off & he was a Goblin underneath . He is based on Spiderman #6 & #7 & I think it was Ghost rider #11 & #12 . He had the shredded cape & evil look . I guess he just reminds people of Demogoblin so they are comparing him . I still think the hyper would be cool where he turns into Demogoblin . I thank you for the compliments & also thank you for pointing out Demo was in Maximum Carnage storyline . I've been trying to figure out some issues he was in to get some reference shots .

On a really positive note , that Azreal is already out !

[Vicious]

Aww... i came to this thread cuz i thought it said HOBOGOBLIN (like a bum goblin).

Well good luck on the HOBgoblin.

[Weapon x program]

azrael is my little baby

[DARKTALBAIN]

Aww... i came to this thread cuz i thought it said HOBOGOBLIN (like a bum goblin).

Well good luck on the HOBgoblin.

  What's up Viscious ? Maybe HOBOgoblin will be next !

[Spidermew]

Heres a quote from wikipedia for you

Jason Macendale
See also: Jack O'Lantern
The next Hobgoblin, Jason Macendale, was a former CIA agent and an enemy of Spider-Man formerly known as Jack O'Lantern.

Despite being a skilled armed and unarmed combattant due to his CIA training, Macendales early career against Spider-Man was met with a string of humiliating failures, which did little to help his underworld reputation. Macendale was obsessed with finding the secret formula of superhuman strength of the original Green Goblin. However, he did not have the scientific expertise of the Green Goblin or the original Hobgoblin to recreate or complete the formula, while his attempts to steal it from Harry Osborn failed as the latter did not have it at the time. After Osborn had donned the identity of the Green Goblin and beaten Macendale in a fight, the latter sought alternative means to gain similar abilities. During a demonic incursion on New York City, Macendale foolishly offered to sell his soul to N'astirh in exchange for the power of a demon. N'astirh refused the offer, considering Macendale's wretched soul to be worthless to him. However, in return for amusing the demon's twisted sense of humor, N'astirh fused a demon to Macendale anyway, just for making him laugh.

Macendale went progressively insane as a result of this transformation, and became convinced that he was appointed by God to kill sinners. It was in this state that the Hobgoblin joined the temporarily reassembled Sinister Six. However, the two identities of Macendale and the demon fought fiercely over control of the body. Shortly thereafter, the demonic presence physically separated itself from Macendale and continued its purge of the city, calling itself the Demogoblin. The Demogoblin also wanted to destroy Macendale, and Spider-Man found himself in the middle of the two clashing Goblins. In a final battle in a cathedral, the Demogoblin was destroyed when it moved to protect a child, which it deemed an innocent, and was crushed by a falling pillar.

Edit: Didnt notice the next page of posts o0!

Aww... i came to this thread cuz i thought it said HOBOGOBLIN (like a bum goblin).

Well good luck on the HOBgoblin.

A bum goblin? Please explain how a Hob is someones butt...

[gaara6666]

good luck with this and the ther projects. i am part of the bleach group making bleahc mugenand it realy is tiring you have my pity as well as my suupport

[Vicious]

Quote from: Vicious on Today at 12:54:21 am
Aww...  i came to this thread cuz i thought it said HOBOGOBLIN (like a bum goblin).

Well good luck on the HOBgoblin.


A bum goblin? Please explain how a Hob is someones butt...

a hobo; a bum, a homless person, a tramp, person living on the streets.

not bum as in butt .

i thought it read HOBOgoblin

[Alexziq]

Sometimes I think you guys think far less of "them" then you should.

I'm not going to assume I know what your referring to, but if you are speaking of what I think you are, then youre a little naive in these matters, At least in regards to some of our experiences.

Some of us have been nothing but kind to certain people, and been dissed, insulted, and accused of things for little, or no reason. Respect is earned, not given. Were not here to kiss anybodys azz. We are having fun bettering our selves by experimenting with our early creations (and learning). Thats it

I'm sure youre right though, I doubt they care.

[Alexziq]

Heres a quote from wikipedia for you

Jason Macendale
See also: Jack O'Lantern
The next Hobgoblin, Jason Macendale, was a former CIA agent and an enemy of Spider-Man formerly known as Jack O'Lantern.

Despite being a skilled armed and unarmed combattant due to his CIA training, Macendales early career against Spider-Man was met with a string of humiliating failures, which did little to help his underworld reputation. Macendale was obsessed with finding the secret formula of superhuman strength of the original Green Goblin. However, he did not have the scientific expertise of the Green Goblin or the original Hobgoblin to recreate or complete the formula, while his attempts to steal it from Harry Osborn failed as the latter did not have it at the time. After Osborn had donned the identity of the Green Goblin and beaten Macendale in a fight, the latter sought alternative means to gain similar abilities. During a demonic incursion on New York City, Macendale foolishly offered to sell his soul to N'astirh in exchange for the power of a demon. N'astirh refused the offer, considering Macendale's wretched soul to be worthless to him. However, in return for amusing the demon's twisted sense of humor, N'astirh fused a demon to Macendale anyway, just for making him laugh.

Macendale went progressively insane as a result of this transformation, and became convinced that he was appointed by God to kill sinners. It was in this state that the Hobgoblin joined the temporarily reassembled Sinister Six. However, the two identities of Macendale and the demon fought fiercely over control of the body. Shortly thereafter, the demonic presence physically separated itself from Macendale and continued its purge of the city, calling itself the Demogoblin. The Demogoblin also wanted to destroy Macendale, and Spider-Man found himself in the middle of the two clashing Goblins. In a final battle in a cathedral, the Demogoblin was destroyed when it moved to protect a child, which it deemed an innocent, and was crushed by a falling pillar.

Edit: Didnt notice the next page of posts o0!

Aww... i came to this thread cuz i thought it said HOBOGOBLIN (like a bum goblin).

Well good luck on the HOBgoblin.

A bum goblin? Please explain how a Hob is someones butt...

This is where I think Marvel started to go down the toilet writing wise. The Hobgoblin story was an awesome mindblowing adventure in those days and filled my elemetery school days with joy. When they blew it by making Leeds Hobgoblin, and then had Jack-o Lantern take over was a let down.

It was like taking the hottest chick in the bar home, only to be too drunk to get it up. A HUGE disappointment to us all. The Wolverine vs Spiderman 1 shot that tied to it was the one enduring part of the reveal, because it was the 1st time something like that happened in Marvel. Making Macendale Demogoblin was pretty cheesey too I thought at the time, but he's okay in retrospect. Im glad DK's Hobby doesnt have the goofy red circle for the Rose that Jacko Hobby used to wear.

[Spidermew]

Heres a quote from wikipedia for you

Jason Macendale
See also: Jack O'Lantern
The next Hobgoblin, Jason Macendale, was a former CIA agent and an enemy of Spider-Man formerly known as Jack O'Lantern.

Despite being a skilled armed and unarmed combattant due to his CIA training, Macendales early career against Spider-Man was met with a string of humiliating failures, which did little to help his underworld reputation. Macendale was obsessed with finding the secret formula of superhuman strength of the original Green Goblin. However, he did not have the scientific expertise of the Green Goblin or the original Hobgoblin to recreate or complete the formula, while his attempts to steal it from Harry Osborn failed as the latter did not have it at the time. After Osborn had donned the identity of the Green Goblin and beaten Macendale in a fight, the latter sought alternative means to gain similar abilities. During a demonic incursion on New York City, Macendale foolishly offered to sell his soul to N'astirh in exchange for the power of a demon. N'astirh refused the offer, considering Macendale's wretched soul to be worthless to him. However, in return for amusing the demon's twisted sense of humor, N'astirh fused a demon to Macendale anyway, just for making him laugh.

Macendale went progressively insane as a result of this transformation, and became convinced that he was appointed by God to kill sinners. It was in this state that the Hobgoblin joined the temporarily reassembled Sinister Six. However, the two identities of Macendale and the demon fought fiercely over control of the body. Shortly thereafter, the demonic presence physically separated itself from Macendale and continued its purge of the city, calling itself the Demogoblin. The Demogoblin also wanted to destroy Macendale, and Spider-Man found himself in the middle of the two clashing Goblins. In a final battle in a cathedral, the Demogoblin was destroyed when it moved to protect a child, which it deemed an innocent, and was crushed by a falling pillar.

This is where I think Marvel started to go down the toilet writing wise. The Hobgoblin story was an awesome mindblowing adventure in those days and filled my elemetery school days with joy. When they blew it by making Leeds Hobgoblin, and then had Jack-o Lantern take over was a let down.

It was like taking the hottest chick in the bar home, only to be too drunk to get it up. A HUGE disappointment to us all. The Wolverine vs Spiderman 1 shot that tied to it was the one enduring part of the reveal, because it was the 1st time something like that happened in Marvel. Making Macendale Demogoblin was pretty cheesey too I thought at the time, but he's okay in retrospect. Im glad DK's Hobby doesnt have the goofy red circle for the Rose that Jacko Hobby used to wear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin_%28comics%29

check it out, Roderick Kingsley only made it look like Ned Leeds was the hobgoblin to hide himself...
Lots of manipulation to make himself not even suspected

[Alexziq]

Kingsly was always suppossed to be Hobby, but Marvel didnt go back and fix it till 15 years later. You probably werent around when it happened so it may all seem to make sense in retrospect, However it was a big bummer at the time, and why would Kingley just disappear, and allow Jacko to take over. Marvel intented for Leeds to be Hobby, even though the writer intended it to be Kingsly. They just switched writers, and it screwed the mystery up.

Gotta say though Kingsly was kinda lame too. I mean come on Mary Janes Boss? I always hoped it was Kingpins son, or some other Spiderman character.

[Spidermew]

Kingsly was always suppossed to be Hobby, but Marvel didnt go back and fix it till 15 years later. You probably werent around when it happened so it may all seem to make sense in retrospect, However it was a big bummer at the time, and why would Kingley just disappear, and allow Jacko to take over. Marvel intented for Leeds to be Hobby, even though the writer intended it to be Kingsly. They just switched writers, and it screwed the mystery up.

Gotta say though Kingsly was kinda lame too. I mean come on Mary Janes Boss? I always hoped it was Kingpins son, or some other Spiderman character.

Yeah thats true about writer switches screwing things up...
Example, orginaly Mr. Sinister was orginaly intended to be a boy who was stuck at 8 years old except when he was using his powers, and Mr. Sinister was what an 8yearold would see as the perfect boogyman, or bad guy.
And that he was with Cyclops at the orphanage.
Then the writer changed and it was ritten off as a disguize Sinister took to get genitic samples of scott after Sinister had worked with his father long before, and that Sinister was from the victorian ages and made imortal by Apocalypse

[dl316bh]

Sometimes I think you guys think far less of "them" then you should.

I'm not going to assume I know what your referring to, but if you are speaking of what I think you are, then youre a little naive in these matters, At least in regards to some of our experiences.

Some of us have been nothing but kind to certain people, and been dissed, insulted, and accused of things for little, or no reason. Respect is earned, not given. Were not here to kiss anybodys azz. We are having fun bettering our selves by experimenting with our early creations (and learning). Thats it

I'm sure youre right though, I doubt they care.

I'm actually not naive in those matters. I know the whole sad story. The thing about it is, I look at the situation where both sites were wrong in certain ways and screwed up, and both likely think less of the other then they should. I hang around both there and here, and none of you are really bad at all.

And of course you're not kissing any a$$. Nobody is. I was just mentioning it's possible you think less of them then you should, considering nobody I've seen in either site is really bad. Just a few different morals and opinions tainted by conflict.

On a really positive note , that Azreal is already out !

Really now? I assumed it was still a WIP of sorts, since I already searched for it and found nothing in regards to MUGEN. Perhaps I should look again...

[Alexziq]

Sometimes I think you guys think far less of "them" then you should.

I'm not going to assume I know what your referring to, but if you are speaking of what I think you are, then youre a little naive in these matters, At least in regards to some of our experiences.

Some of us have been nothing but kind to certain people, and been dissed, insulted, and accused of things for little, or no reason. Respect is earned, not given. Were not here to kiss anybodys azz. We are having fun bettering our selves by experimenting with our early creations (and learning). Thats it

I'm sure youre right though, I doubt they care.

I'm actually not naive in those matters. I know the whole sad story. The thing about it is, I look at the situation where both sites were wrong in certain ways and screwed up, and both likely think less of the other then they should. I hang around both there and here, and none of you are really bad at all.

And of course you're not kissing any a$$. Nobody is. I was just mentioning it's possible you think less of them then you should, considering nobody I've seen in either site is really bad. Just a few different morals and opinions tainted by conflict.

On a really positive note , that Azreal is already out !

Really now? I assumed it was still a WIP of sorts, since I already searched for it and found nothing in regards to MUGEN. Perhaps I should look again...

Again its not an Infinity vs them thing, its more personal than that with a couple people in my team, and 1, or 2 of those individuals. Unfortunatly there are still some issues, but I'll leave it at that.

Azrael you can find all the warehouser have him on esnips, but officially he is on J.L.M. at MSN, and Sonic X Mugen

[DARKTALBAIN]

This topic just won't die ... . Like I stated I have no problem with any of "them" . As a matter of fact I am cool with everyone now . I've spoke with a certain Batman creator through PM . I'm allright with him . What happened between the 2 forums is really none of my business . Though it was an interesting read every night . I had nothing to do with it . I consider SonicX  mugen my home forum anyway . I just want to make cool characters for the better of the community , without any bulls**t . That's what I've always said . I can't speak for the rest of the team. But I think the feelings mutual with them .

As for the Hobgoblin , I was devastated when they made Jack O lantern become Hobby . In my opinion Green Goblin & Hobgoblin were sweet ! Jack O Lantern was a lower tier character , then he puts on the Hobgoblin suit & he was still a lower tier character with a great persons that wasn't really his . Fictional character or not , I took that seriously . I stopped reading Marvel back then , also . Between all the Goblins , Symbiotes , Dopplegangers , & different Spiderman's , I was disgusted . You will probably never see me create any of those other symbiotes , Venom (at first ) & Carnage were great . Until Venom was the most popular character they had & they threw him in every book including Darkhawk just to try to boost sales on that garbage . The rest of those symbiotes just sucked in my opinion . Didn't they end up bringing back Norman Osbourne as the Green Goblin then ? He was dead since 1976 or 1979 , they should have left it that way . On the plus side when GG came back the cover did have a fancy Holographic , prismatic cover . Like that was something new . I agree that whole 90's era was definately the decline of Marvel .

I went with the Hobgoblin I liked . I mean I really liked the original . But for a mugen character he has to be more exaggerated ! BTW No way in hell was I going to put that "rose" circle on him . I have had a few complaints already that I should have made DemoGoblin instead . I couldn't even remember what the hell that character looked like until I found some shots on the net last night . I just remebered he had that stupid " Erik Larsen " tongue . Now that I look at him he's not that bad . But I stand by my choice in Hobby the way he is . I already revamped all the sprites , I could've easily turned him into Demogoblin or another version . I like what I am doing . Hopefully when he is complete you all wil too !   

I am going to post something new in the works & go back to bed . I'm sick as a dog !