Private characters: let's talk about it

[shanri]

Honestly speaking, I don't see a problem with people going private (I plan to do the same soon).

i am sorry to hear that.  you will be missed.  you have made many great contributions to mugen.  Thank you for them all.

[navs41]

let me start by commending and thanking all the artists and coders who so generously share your work with the community.  no matter your skill level, you are mugen.  there would not be a mugen community without this altruistic mindset.  so, thank you all.

It's not entirely altruistic.
I plan to get credit for what I do.

Your definition of mugen includes all the leeches and thieves too. Think about it.

Although each creator has the right to release or make private, and the right to create or not create,  I think there is a serious flaw in thinking a private creation is  a justifiable option. 

Let's not mix "private" categories.

There are chars which are worked by the original artist/team, and the "rehashed/updated by" versions that sadly pop around later.
The first category upsets kids that can't wait - people without REAL responsibilities. The second category is the scum of the community (save for those who actually bother to get permission).

firstly many creators are editing characters created by for profit companies such as capcom, marvel, etc....  these creators wish to edit these IP's as if they are opensource, yet feel that their derivative creations should be closed source.

They are open source. Scruffydragon wrote letters to Marvel, DC, Capcom and others asking about such permissions.
You just haven't been around enough to know the companies consider them fan art - as long as there's no commerce involved, there's no problem.

without a fanbase to enthusiastically support the creators, there would not be much of the surrounding infrastructure, such as forums, and warehousing sites etc... it is the exuberant community that in turn brings more people to this space, some of which will be the great creators of the future.  there is a small minority who think that they are the end all be all of mugen creation, and they try to convince others to join their point of view, so they can further justify it.  its a shame.  there is no use creating, if there is noone to enjoy it

I take it that for a fanbase to support a creator successfully, the fans need to know who actually did what.
And leeches don't give credit. They steal the creation and the credit. And the real artist who busted hours in sprite and code gets nothing.

mugen is intended to be an opensource project, where a community comes together and creates the basis to homebrew your own 2d fighter.  the laws of supply and demand apply. good creations rise to the top and the lesser creations fill unused collections or warehousing websites.  there are by far more unfinished projects and bad creations than there are truly roster worthy characters.  but to those who create fantastic characters, they have a certain level of fame and respect among the mugen community.  there are creators whos works fill many rosters and are enjoyed by the majority of the community.  creators like loganir, zvitor, oillusionista, zox, the infinity team, the scruffy dragon team and others have made mugen what it is today.

Zox? You serious about it?
People like Zox drove Loganir away from mugen. Did you join the community yesterday?

they want to bully and be negative about new creators, but they all had to learn the craft at some point to.  it is through positive support that these "not so good" creators can grow into good or even great creators.  this small faction of detractors will even pick apart and talk down about the nicer characters, not celebrating the quality, but seeking out the flaws and exploiting them.  while this faction is compiled of quality creators, none (maybe one) is the best mugen has ever had.

Old dogs have tried to teach the newcomers how to behave.
Unfortunately, the age range and maturity in the community is wide. The lazy choose to steal and they never look back.

Zox, Logansam, Malevka... they are all here and still around. None has ever acknowledged stealing someone else's sprite work.

i do sympathize with the creators who are upset when their works are used without their permission.  sometimes their works are improved by those who come after, but often they are degraded by cheap edits and palette swaps.  however, i feel that it is a small minority who are not following the mugen code of conduct in respecting other peoples works.  and i also feel that it is a small minority hoarding their creations as private.  i look forward to years more of great mugen creations from the great creators who still exist, and so generously share their work with the community.  i am tired of the elitism which exists in a certain small faction of creators.  and i notice it affects how their works are received.  they used to post their works, and the community would be excited for the eventual release, and the comment sections would fill pages.  now if they post their private works, they are met with little fanfare, and they must rely on each other to pat each other on the backs for bolstering their sense of accomplishment.  the bitter selfish road is much lonelier than the magnanimous route.  mugen extends beyond all of us, and will be around long after this kerfuffle has sussed itself out.

If you really are into the high road, create something, post, have it stolen and then accept it.
Else, you are just talking about risks you ain't taking, and consequences that do not affect you.

[Rage]

How so?

If no one knows someone's working on a character till the wip's released, how do you know they actually quit?

And whats wrong with working on a character in private? No one has to tell you what they're working on.

I may have missed read your statement. At glance i thought you saying it was ok with others to take, change peoples work but i see what you meant after rereading it.....

[mulambo]

i feel like you didnt read my whole post, and just jumped on this one statement

well, , if somebody pooped on the top of a cake and served it to you, would you remove the top of it and eat the rest of the cake? I wouldn't, .

I simply don't read the rest of the extremely long post because I know it's infected. Nothing good.

You may have all the reason, but the only thing you're trying to accomplish is to be "convincing".

[shanri]

It's not entirely altruistic.
I plan to get credit for what I do.

Your definition of mugen includes all the leeches and thieves too. Think about it.

Let's not mix "private" categories.

There are chars which are worked by the original artist/team, and the "rehashed/updated by" versions that sadly pop around later.
The first category upsets kids that can't wait - people without REAL responsibilities. The second category is the scum of the community (save for those who actually bother to get permission).

I take it that for a fanbase to support a creator successfully, the fans need to know who actually did what.
And leeches don't give credit. They steal the creation and the credit. And the real artist who busted hours in sprite and code gets nothing.

i agree. there needs to be a code of conduct.  asking permission and giving credit are important.  there is a deficit of respect in many instances.  giving credit is an easy way to solve many issues.  it amazes me that it is so often neglected, considering it is an easy and cheap appeasement.  (not to mention shows proper respect to the original creator)

They are open source. Scruffydragon wrote letters to Marvel, DC, Capcom and others asking about such permissions.
You just haven't been around enough to know the companies consider them fan art - as long as there's no commerce involved, there's no problem.

i was not aware of the letters sent.  and you claim reply was received?  that is something they should post on their site.  while interesting, my point is still that somebody else created the initial work.  many of these works were built on bases created by somebody else.  i just think there is an irony to being upset when your work is used by others, when that work was predicated on the work of others.  also, i dont think marvel or capcom are ready (or confident enough) to set court precident yet, but the second this begins to encroach on the bottom line, they will.  we have already seen gaming companies beginning to come after the fan arena.  rom sites are being shut down in quick succession.  the homemade ocarina of time on the unreal engine received cease and desist, as did the homemade unreal castlevania.  i believe that the use of game components is still legally murkier than you make it out.

Zox? You serious about it?
People like Zox drove Loganir away from mugen. Did you join the community yesterday?

Old dogs have tried to teach the newcomers how to behave.
Unfortunately, the age range and maturity in the community is wide. The lazy choose to steal and they never look back.

Zox, Logansam, Malevka... they are all here and still around. None has ever acknowledged stealing someone else's sprite work.

i included zox because of his fantastic hand drawn sprites.  he creates beautiful works.  i am only tangentially familiar with the negative points you bring up.  loganir was a terrible loss for mugen.  his works are still among the best.  as for using sprites and not acknowledging it, this should not be the practice.  i cannot defend those actions, but i do lament when the inappropriate minority costs the devoted majority future works.

If you really are into the high road, create something, post, have it stolen and then accept it.
Else, you are just talking about risks you ain't taking, and consequences that do not affect you.

you may be right.  we will see if my sentiment changes when this happens.  i have commissioned characters and seen them reappropriated, which caused me no issue.  i have donated sprites to project that did not achieve the quality i had hoped, i maintained my emotions.  i do recognize that those are both different scenarios than you speak of, but with some similarities.  i have a series of WIPs i hope to release soon.  my anticipation is to release them into the wild, and accept that they are then out of my hands.  the original will remain unaltered, however it will then belong to the community and future iterations will be out of my control.  my position may change when it becomes reality and not mere theory.  we shall see.

anyhow, i appreciate your rebuttal.  you make good points from different perspectives.  i maintain my view, however, that if everyone privatized their works, we would not have mugen.  the intent, as shown by the opensource, free release, was for a group work project.  just how i see things.  i do think mugen would be better with more respect for the work that others put in.   those who take without giving back are legion, but i think that is just the natural dynamic of groups.  again... thanks for the discourse.

[metamutant]

I will never understand how some people can bite the hand of those that feed them, and then complain about the consequences. This is simple, creators release free content and some only ask that their work are not used without permission. If these creators' wishes are not respected then eventually they will quit or go private. There are only a handful are high quality dc/marvel creators, especially those that make characters new to mugen. So either creators are respected or mugen dies a slow death of palettes swaps and horrible, lazy, and bugs filled edits. Why upset the people who are giving you free content to entertain yourselves with? There is no good answer to this question.

 

[Rage]

I will never understand how some people can bite the hand of those that feed them, and then complain about the consequences. This is simple, creators release free content and some only ask that their work are not used without permission. If these creators' wishes are not respected then eventually they will quit or go private. There are only a handful are high quality dc/marvel creators, especially those that make characters new to mugen. So either creators are respected or mugen dies a slow death of palettes swaps and horrible, lazy, and bugs filled edits. Why upset the people who are giving you free content to entertain yourselves with? There is no good answer to this question.