Whats Happening to mugen Scene?

[Superjoker]

MUGEN is one of my favorite hobbies

i make the time to play it especially when mates are over, (HDMI cable baby!)

But I think you cannot truly play this game without FRIENDS, sharing and creating.
It's funner like that IMO...

Some people forget about the meaning of INFINITY 

[Arkady]

I notice that ever since I started creating, I play less than I create.  I was never good at fighting games anyway, it was my love of comics that brought me to MUGEN.  Someone posted about it back in a forum for the game  Freedom Force, a game that I used to make character skins and 3D model hexes for.  (Some of you may remember it.  Electro. Intensity. I remember you guys!)

Anyway, my point is that Electro is right about people being intimidated to create.   I used to create for that Freedom Force site, but rarely shared either because I thought I had no skill compared to some of the other amazing people, and I feared the criticism.  I used to be afraid to learn these things because I though coding was impossible. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. Also, maybe it's because I'm older and have a love of the pixels and games like this from "my era", that I'd happy to sit in my nostalgia and keep with MUGEN.  My niece, (a fairly strong gamer who makes sprites for fun) saw me making Jubilee and was excited and said "Oh! can I make one?"  not realizing the work that goes in.  I tried to explain MUGEN to her a bit and while she kinda shut it down.  It surprised me.  She's young, she loves comics, she loves spriting, she loves video games (including fighting), why not love MUGEN?

It wasn't instant-gratification...that's why. It was "work".  The feedback and criticism I showed her for my works scared her.  It's not scary, it's how you learn.  She's used to her other gaming forum where she gets praise all the time.  Maybe I scared her off from it.  Maybe she needs time like I did.  Maybe she thought it was too much of a "boys club". Who knows?

Another thing I want to say is that when you tear people apart in MUGEN, they don't want to share anymore and I think it's a harsh thing to do to someone who just wanted to share with you in the first place.  Criticize and help, yes, but don't just say "that's bad" or something without detailed reasons.  That's not helpful.

Ok, I rant a lot all over the place, so I'll shut up now.

I agree 100%...

  here here down with the boys club
totally agree chimoru

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

I agree with chimoru and Electro as well. ( I am too lazy to quote all that...plus I dont know how to mutliqoute on a tablet )

Omfg ....we are a ....boys club? 
We need more girls in the club then!  Boys always go all out to impress the girls. Will see a total flux in mugen creating big time. Lol. Well thats what boys did back in the 80s trying to impress the girls. Hahaha.

Hmmmm actually when comes showing kids to sprite, my 5 year old neice took to it better than my 13 year old son. He a sports jock while she loves to draw and me showing her stuff.  Had my son do 1 single sprite....quit on it cause he thought it took too long while my neice sat down for an hour and half just to learn it and shade.  Lol.
He doesnt mind helpin with the art looks on paper but cpu...not his thing . Kids are a stramge bunch but def shows they are only willing if they have the patience and interest to do it. He loves to play mugen , but the creating side....not his thing.

[Chimoru]

Well thank you. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels this way.  I know these are just my opinions, but I think some of them are valid. 

I know we have some ELITE (not elitist) creators here that have been around since the beginning and they are really good, so they have come to expect greatness.  That's good. We look up to you guys.  I came into MUGEN around the original Project X time (Not "Second Coming" Project X, I mean like, "ComedyHaHa" old-school Project X, 2004-2005)  So I've been around this community for maybe a decade now.  I didn't start creating until maybe 2 years ago. So I'm an old-timer who is late to the creation game.  My fear of coding grew a lot from the idea that because everyone else had a headstart on me, I'd never catch up or that it was just too hard and impossible for me.

Neither of these things are true.

It's not so hard that it's impossible to learn and it's really inspiring to know that you can add things now to characters that you love, or make ones that don't exist yet.  Have I gotten to be as skilled as I want?  No, but I'm having fun getting there.

There might be a rift between the ELITE and the NEWBIES, but we're not at war.  I DO think that we could try to meet more in the middle though.  I understand that the ELITE can't let mistakes slide because then it reflects poorly on THEM for allowing it, so I'm GLAD they call me on stuff.  If they don't check your work, who will?

That being said....not everyone is GLAD to get called out.  Don't get me wrong, I can get frustrated when I work on something and it gets called "trash".  I don't feel that kind of vicious criticism is helpful, but I know it unfortunately exists.  However, I DO believe that people can be reasonable if given the chance, so I have to stop, look at it objectively, calm myself, put my feeling on the back burner, and ask that person WHY they think what I did is bad and what THEY would suggest to make it better.  Now, instead of being at a "war of opinions", I'm now working to be at a "creative alliance" with a more experienced person whose information and help is invaluable.

I notice that a lot of the ELITE creators actually LIKE when a NEWBIE can take criticism and WANTS to improve. I wish more NEWBIES would do this, and I wish more ELITE would remember that they were not always as skilled as they are now and try to be a bit kinder.  It took courage for a NEWBIE to transition from an INACTIVE observer to an ACTIVE contributor. It would be a shame to make them regret it.  For all you know, a lot of the "retired" creators may still be working, just not sharing with us anymore because they got needlessly slammed too hard. I'd be lying if I said the thought never crossed my mind.

Like I said, this community is more than a decade old, so I know it's hard to "time-travel" like that, and remember what it was like to be a NEWBIE, but please try.

Also, NEWBIES, please try to understand that if an ELITE calls you out, it's because they are trying to bring something to your attention and please ask them about it, no matter how harsh they are.  People can be reasonable.  Not always, but it doesn't hurt to try. 

We are a small community and we're all we have.  Our experiences and thoughts are not really found in other gaming forums, we should treat each other with respect, empathize with each other, and work together through a bit of sacrifice for the better of this community.

That's just my two cents.  I thank you all for your help and your attention.

[O Ilusionista]

Also, NEWBIES, please try to understand that if an ELITE calls you out, it's because they are trying to bring something to your attention and please ask them about it, no matter how harsh they are.  People can be reasonable.  Not always, but it doesn't hurt to try. 

oh sweet Lord of heaven, finally people are starting to understand!

[Arkady]

Well thank you. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that feels this way.  I know these are just my opinions, but I think some of them are valid. 

I know we have some ELITE (not elitist) creators here that have been around since the beginning and they are really good, so they have come to expect greatness.  That's good. We look up to you guys.  I came into MUGEN around the original Project X time (Not "Second Coming" Project X, I mean like, "ComedyHaHa" old-school Project X, 2004-2005)  So I've been around this community for maybe a decade now.  I didn't start creating until maybe 2 years ago. So I'm an old-timer who is late to the creation game.  My fear of coding grew a lot from the idea that because everyone else had a headstart on me, I'd never catch up or that it was just too hard and impossible for me.

Neither of these things are true.

It's not so hard that it's impossible to learn and it's really inspiring to know that you can add things now to characters that you love, or make ones that don't exist yet.  Have I gotten to be as skilled as I want?  No, but I'm having fun getting there.

There might be a rift between the ELITE and the NEWBIES, but we're not at war.  I DO think that we could try to meet more in the middle though.  I understand that the ELITE can't let mistakes slide because then it reflects poorly on THEM for allowing it, so I'm GLAD they call me on stuff.  If they don't check your work, who will?

That being said....not everyone is GLAD to get called out.  Don't get me wrong, I can get frustrated when I work on something and it gets called "trash".  I don't feel that kind of vicious criticism is helpful, but I know it unfortunately exists.  However, I DO believe that people can be reasonable if given the chance, so I have to stop, look at it objectively, calm myself, put my feeling on the back burner, and ask that person WHY they think what I did is bad and what THEY would suggest to make it better.  Now, instead of being at a "war of opinions", I'm now working to be at a "creative alliance" with a more experienced person whose information and help is invaluable.

I notice that a lot of the ELITE creators actually LIKE when a NEWBIE can take criticism and WANTS to improve. I wish more NEWBIES would do this, and I wish more ELITE would remember that they were not always as skilled as they are now and try to be a bit kinder.  It took courage for a NEWBIE to transition from an INACTIVE observer to an ACTIVE contributor. It would be a shame to make them regret it.  For all you know, a lot of the "retired" creators may still be working, just not sharing with us anymore because they got needlessly slammed too hard. I'd be lying if I said the thought never crossed my mind.

Like I said, this community is more than a decade old, so I know it's hard to "time-travel" like that, and remember what it was like to be a NEWBIE, but please try.

Also, NEWBIES, please try to understand that if an ELITE calls you out, it's because they are trying to bring something to your attention and please ask them about it, no matter how harsh they are.  People can be reasonable.  Not always, but it doesn't hurt to try. 

We are a small community and we're all we have.  Our experiences and thoughts are not really found in other gaming forums, we should treat each other with respect, empathize with each other, and work together through a bit of sacrifice for the better of this community.

That's just my two cents.  I thank you all for your help and your attention.

  I'm Right! YOure wrong! and your work pfft   

  totally agree chimoru, with everything you've been saying on this thread

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

oh sweet Lord of heaven, finally people are starting to understand!

I KNEW you was gonna quote this part big O. Lol
I can agree with that as well I see many sides of it that really isnt cool with those feedbacks. Many of the.."ELITE" arent always the ones giving those harsh feedbacks to folks. Its the other guys and some crazy troll folks. Some of it aint really even feedback at all, just negative talk with no real substance. Feedback without concise substance to help a problem needed to be solved means very very little if its just rant feedback. When newbie folks who might want to try things read these kinds of posts. It envokes fear. Heck its even chased off those who were elite amongst themselves amd have never come back. Shame it happens.

By no means saying to pamper folks but its always has proven as well to try a different more productive dialog to give feedback without the harshness gone and taken overboard. I can filter stuff from blah blah feedbacks that do have a message, but alas, thats me and I cant expect others to do the same. Works for some and some it doesnt.
its the internet...it always the excuse, but I think in mugen as folks are artists wether older in it or new can have better communications and respect each other to have things work right and learn very well. Thats why I am glad to make good friends with people and good they are great at what they do, from those frienships I am always learning things in a positive put way. So I agree with whats said but I still have my disagrees on feedback issues.

Now I will go and get a sandwich from Arch garbage bin out back....he threw away a perfectly good half eaten hoagie sandwich!  Yes!

[Hellzone]

i myself love mugen, i play it and i always enjoy trying out new characters and ive made a few of my own but nothing big but im eager to make something that everyone wants to test or play with, like im working on a symbiote hulk. with new fighting games coming out and other rpg games i see new ideas for content.

[DEMONKAI]

Hey Guys
i don't know if is the right place to write in, but i felt like sharing...

When i first came onboard to mugen,there were plenty of projects around, newbies and old guys and mugen was already a tool that was being used for a long time.

now, after more than 10 years, i feel like mugen is dying and i don't like the feeling.
i remember that everyday(i mean it, everyday, more than once per day) i came onboard and search into every mugen site i could find in google and altavista(rest in piece) for news, creators, updates, sprites, rare edited stuff, new wips and more than everything , releases.
And in that time, we had new awesome projects emerging everyday, release sites, new creators popping up.

Where it all started to go wrong?

The main thing is people who've been around since the early 2000 within the community are just growing up is all. Having kids, working constantly (like me) and going to college, chasing careers, whatever. It happens. You get life distractions or you lose interest for long periods of time when it comes to hobbies in general. Most now are in their 30s and 40s and with kids.

That plus that trolling crap kills a lot of new possible talent coming into mugen publicly. Before people created for the fun in it and sharing and learning to create. So many clashes happened that people caught feelings and either bailed for a long time or just for good.

I saw the comments on Feedback. If people started focusing more on the coding issues or (sprite issues) respectfully and help get a persons works to be better instead of flame bashing, things would be better collectively as a community. Too many times threads get derailed. Not everybody is illiterate or too young to see when a person is being an @sshole to them so feedback gets twisted up on how its delivered and put across. A creator asks"So tell me if you guys liked it". RESPECTFULLY you tell him/her "yes i liked it" or "no i didnt". A Small mature opinionated constructive reason why without insults if you didnt. They asked so you give it! Simple! IF the creator says "Let me know if you found any bugs". RESPECTFULLY. You list the things you saw odd or a bit off and possibly share what you think could fix it if you are a bit experienced. When people master that part without insulting each other being douche bags in threads the community will prosper way better.


Anyway Mugen will still be around as long as the vets are willing to create new stuff and newbies are willing to listen and learn to join in with that also without fear of failure. Its only a hobby folks.


Thats all i gotta say on that.......

[shastab24]

The waning of the community may very well have come from the fractured aspect it had in its most attended days.  People were discouraged from coming in, because infighting is never a selling point, and that made it so that when people started leaving the community (because of the aforementioned infighting, because they had other things going on in their lives, whatever), new blood was not coming in to fill the vacancies--the community just kept getting smaller.  Plus, people leave from a lack of encouragement.

There's also the fact that, popularly, many people see MUGEN as this weird giant crossover fighting game.  Considering it's obviously a fan project, that can make people disregard it.  I would love to see the thing maybe ride some of the coattails of the uptick in indie game popularity.  It's just as to the how that's the problem.

But also another big problem with everything is a broken balance amongst characters.  Too many cheap characters diminish the game.  But this also goes into the regular characters--power levels are erratic and nonsensical (computer-controlled, Dazzler will wipe the floor with computer-controlled original universe Superman every time, for instance).  It would be problematic to fix this, too, as people should not be censored from making who they want, and there's also the fact that to stay true to a certain game, characters may well be grossly overpowered.  Compound that with people creating characters to fit that game and others creating characters to fit that and that can be a problem.  Still, it can be difficult to play the game if your favorite characters all fight so differently.  Personally, as a rather low-skill level player, I may like the idea of the game, and want to play, but I have to go through a painstaking process of trying to find out who is at what power level so I can tier the characters and then finally possibly learn to play the game (maybe if someone found out how to have the difficulty levels in the game actually mean something, possibly to correspond to different AI files or something).

As far as the boys' club aspect: I'm a woman who's part of the community, if that means anything.  But of course there are exceptions in every group and I guess I'm one of them.  Really, I got into it because fighting games are my favorite type of video games (despite being rather bad at playing them--I tend to do "jump kick, kick, repeat" in order to play) and I love superheroes, which are rather plentiful in the community.  Now, my being female may be dismissed by some due to my being transgender, but such is as it is.

[Chimoru]

Now, my being female may be dismissed by some due to my being transgender, but such is as it is.

A bit off-topic, but I personally, would never dismiss you for being transgender.  You are 100% female as far as I'm concerned.

Back to the main topic, you make a lot of valid points. I am also a very low-skill player.  I create mainly out of my love for comic characters, not so much the fighting game aspect.  Still, if I'm going to offer something to everyone, I have to make sure that there is something EVERYONE can enjoy, and that's...difficult.    It's a process I struggle with for every project I release.

Sure I can make a bunch of characters for myself that maybe aren't up to par, but look cool, but what fun is that? So, I choose to take the more difficult road and try to make stuff that's more suitable for a high-skill player.  This is the wall I keep hitting.  But I believe if I learn to use the community and its resources appropriately, I can learn how to use MUGEN and create for it appropriately as well.  It's not a perfect system, no, but you don't find games like this just anywhere.  I'll try to do the best I can with this opportunity.

[Twinimage]

I'm also not the best at playing fighting games either which is a disadvantage when making my characters. Thanks to playing more fighting games, especially SF3, I feel I have a better understanding and will strive to code better characters.

[O Ilusionista]

Now, my being female may be dismissed by some due to my being transgender, but such is as it is.

Not really. Bea/Beatrice is very known on the community for 15 years and she is a trangender too. I never saw someone treating her without respect.  Because respect has nothing with gender, faith, race, etc. What it counts are the attitudes.

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

There's also the fact that, popularly, many people see MUGEN as this weird giant crossover fighting game.  Considering it's obviously a fan project, that can make people disregard it.  I would love to see the thing maybe ride some of the coattails of the uptick in indie game popularity.  It's just as to the how that's the problem.

But also another big problem with everything is a broken balance amongst characters.  Too many cheap characters diminish the game.  But this also goes into the regular characters--power levels are erratic and nonsensical (computer-controlled, Dazzler will wipe the floor with computer-controlled original universe Superman every time, for instance).  It would be problematic to fix this, too, as people should not be censored from making who they want, and there's also the fact that to stay true to a certain game, characters may well be grossly overpowered.  Compound that with people creating characters to fit that game and others creating characters to fit that and that can be a problem.  Still, it can be difficult to play the game if your favorite characters all fight so differently.  Personally, as a rather low-skill level player, I may like the idea of the game, and want to play, but I have to go through a painstaking process of trying to find out who is at what power level so I can tier the characters and then finally possibly learn to play the game (maybe if someone found out how to have the difficulty levels in the game actually mean something, possibly to correspond to different AI files or something).

As far as the boys' club aspect: I'm a woman who's part of the community, if that means anything.  But of course there are exceptions in every group and I guess I'm one of them.  Really, I got into it because fighting games are my favorite type of video games (despite being rather bad at playing them--I tend to do "jump kick, kick, repeat" in order to play) and I love superheroes, which are rather plentiful in the community.  Now, my being female may be dismissed by some due to my being transgender, but such is as it is.

Sup there Shastab. 
 I def feel the thoughts. It is gonna be always a cross over game engine. Thats the beauty and lure of MUGEN. Anyone vs anyone. But, there is also the freedom to create a full game with the engine. Thats my biggest draw to mugen. In singular releases of characters, kts very hard to get this " balance" that folks out there would love to have because creators create what they like and share.
Various playstyles that are created and  coded in to emulate certain company games mechanics differ in many aspects from others. Not to mention those that go very freestyle with it is even further.
 
Now full games created is where you will find the key to mugen balance. Its always been said and known. In a full game you have a set gameplay mechanic and balancing characters within it is the goal. Make everything function and work well to have a semblance of gameplay balance with its fighting mechanics. Solo characters....in mugen.....nahhhh. No matter how well your character you create is coded there are thousands that are not in the same manner....even if they are well coded as well.
Only way forseeable to have this type of balance throughout mugen imo from playing characters over the years....they all have similar to exact playstyle. But might become boring then for me.

Broken characters are def those super op murder death kill one hit characters. . Very few I have liked cause they were fun but most I stay away from. Unless they are all formed into one full game and then balanced out while retaining their godlike moves and damage then they are no longer...broken. sorta speak.

I actually in fighting game dont believe in tiers. I believe in the person playing the characters and their skill levels with them. I have played with some of my offline friends who played with higher tier level character as so put forth and beaten them flat with a lesser tier so called character. Your skill is where its at and part of fighting games is to overcome those challenges that your characters may have against another player wether person of cpu. I am way more skilled at 3d fighting games than some 2d. I suck at mvc3  ( got my buttcheeks handed to me by acey, whiplash, glux, silva silva, manolostyle and sic 1...d@mn you all!  ) but I am good at mvc1 and 2....for some odd reason. Lol.

 90% of my games stash for every console system I have ever ownd ( and currently) have been fighting games. I love fighting games since ....the begining of them. I usually choose characters I find interesting and of course thei gameplay matters as well how they are done. Cvs, kof and many others I seriously get into like blazblue ( one of my super favs other than Virtua Fighter series and DOA series...my 2  favs period) cause I love the mechanics, the moves and the quality. Yes I am a fighting  game nut!

I respect Bea , she is a very cool person., I respect all genders no matter. As said its not about ones gender but ones attitude and personality dislayed is what puts folks either off or cool with. Far as I have seen gender has not been an issue of disrespect in the community. But attitudes and those uhhhggg personallty of those bad apple folks ( trolls) is what I cant stand.

 We are a community of gamers of any skill level playing them, creating content wether public or private as well communicating with each other day to day or whenever in the free hobby we try to enjoy. I love to enjoy the company of others that are friendly and cool and respect and admire the folks who create and converse that are the same as well. I still respect art as a whole no matter the level of it.


Dang it another freakin essay! I seriously gotta find shorter ways to say stuff. 
ehhh I am a Crom hobo king....I like speeches I guess. 

[trexrell44]

I did not think it was dead at all.Their are always sprites being created. A few good releases has been made within the past couple of months. I would love to come back and create more than anything  but I personally have my own stuff to do atm. Things do change, I do see how things can sour where we had simply amazing creations come out in the past things do start to range from meh to decent. Creators are using the same types of move sets and not really stepping outside the box with animations like what O Ilusionista, Zvitor and Loganir seem to be known for. Events were a big thing and fun, you can not deny that. I think what Xfields is missing is those type of top of the line creations that we are accustomed too, no new news on big projects and a few superstars have seem to disappear. I think a new generation will arrive and with the growing skill of new comers like Chimoru(can't wait for your next release) comic mugen has a bright future.

[Twinimage]

I agree that a person's attitude makes a HUGE difference, not their gender or anything else. They can still contribute where they can, with what talents they have. The most I usually can tell is what country they are from, though I often assume they are male. I do wish there were more female members here. It's more fun when we have a more diverse group of fans doing stuff together.

[Cyanide]

Nobody who knows what they're talking about should be flaming anyone in release threads. It is entirely possible to give impersonal advice and feedback. What seems to be harder these days is finding A: people who do that and B: people who listen.

Also, an active help section generally shows an active community. Means more people are coming in.

[O Ilusionista]

It is entirely possible to give impersonal advice and feedback.

Saddly, this is not true everywhere. Some "veterans" thinks they can be harsh and bash anyone without giving a proper feedback just because they are veterans. And because they have friends who will lick their balls.

Thanks God, this doesn't happens everywhere.

[Arkady]

Saddly, this is not true everywhere. Some "veterans" thinks they can be harsh and bash anyone without giving a proper feedback just because they are veterans. And because they have friends who will lick their balls.

Thanks God, this doesn't happens everywhere.

VOTE FOR ILLU!!!
say NO to veteran ball lickers!
health plan for hobos
ninjitsu classes in school
vote for illu, I would

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

VOTE FOR ILLU!!!
say NO to veteran ball lickers!
health plan for hobos
ninjitsu classes in school
vote for illu, I would

laughing so hard I cant even do a comment right for this.
Most epic speech O Illu with that bro. 
O ILU 3:16 Says  say No to veteran ball lickers and thats the bottom line cause Big O says so! 

[O Ilusionista]

hahahhahahah
But seriously, I am very tired of that type of "veteran". For me, a veteran is someone how actually helped the community to grow, not just because he is old.

health plan for hobos

TRUE hobos doesn't needs health plans. Take Lando as an example.

[Tha Lando ( Le CROM )]

  we dont? Uhhhh yeah we true hobos do have coverage!
Currently I am a platinum HMD  card memeber. HOBO MAKE DUE! 
honestly just a card with silver spray paint on it and a lil dirt smudge.

[trexrell44]

Even a little bit of encouragement helps I think.  I honestly only really pay attention to most of the creators in the comic genre. :O Ilusionista: is the definition of a living legend. Not to be a "veteran ball lickers" or anything.. You have to really pay attention to his creations and what he has done in the community since he began using the program. He actively participated in the testing and creation of fighter factory, to me that is in need of merit as I do not think I could have gotten into creation without the ease of that program. Taking a look at some of his more original creations like that T'Hawk he has implemented things in his characters that many of us should learn to emulate. Things like hit sounds well timed and pressured screen shacks and using older move sets to come up with new and exciting variations. I had never had as much fun playing what is arguably the the most boring character in street fighter he made him new and exciting.

I say this to make this point. People get excited about fined tuned creations and innovations in any genre. That keeps it fresh and it helps bring in new and better talent.  :O Ilusionista: has and continue to do this with bringing 3d sprites into the mix.

I think the community should continue to be friendly to noobs. I also am in the corner where the community should evolve into a more high quality and innovative place. We been doing pal swaps since the invention of the program. I eagerly await releases from some of the "Veterans". because I know their will be solid releases. Verz,Zvitor,Loganir, :O Ilusionista:, and a bunch of more guys i know I am missing , I just wanted to name a few.

I always thought we needed a hall of fame in the comic book Mugen community. That way we all would have something to strive for and it would encourage more creativity and competition which would bring in more players... creators . Not to mention much better creations.

[O Ilusionista]

Oh, really thanks for the nice words, buddy.
I kinda feel myself paid for all the years of working with those words

[Arkady]

   vote for illu