Republicans hate the troops

[god_king]

Religion and Public views
in the end that's what it's all about

Well, that's the means by which the war was sold to the American people, but it's not what the war is or ever was about. It's just the way Bush and his cronies figured they'd have the easiest time tricking their people into believing they needed to go to war.

For Hitler, blaming the Jews was an effective means of mobilizing his people against a common enemy.

For Bush, claiming that Muslims "hate our freedom" served the same purpose.

It's an old game. Pick a religion/ethnic group who has something you want, tell your people that that group hates you and wants you dead, and you've got the most effective means in the world to take what you want.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They posed no threat to the US. There were no WMDs. It was all just greed and lies.

[Esq.]

Well, that's the means by which the war was sold to the American people, but it's not what the war is or ever was about. It's just the way Bush and his cronies figured they'd have the easiest time tricking their people into believing they needed to go to war.

For Hitler, blaming the Jews was an effective means of mobilizing his people against a common enemy.

For Bush, claiming that Muslims "hate our freedom" served the same purpose.

It's an old game. Pick a religion/ethnic group who has something you want, tell your people that that group hates you and wants you dead, and you've got the most effective means in the world to take what you want.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They posed no threat to the US. There were no WMDs. It was all just greed and lies.

 

[god_king]

.......which is precisely my point. This is ridiculous, that with that number AS HIGH AS IT IS, it still isn't definite. It doesn't even include the U.S. deathtoll. These numbers, given the number of years this war has lasted...are INCREDIBLY HIGH!

Oh, I do agree. No argument there. I'm just saying that citing Iraqbodycount as the "real numbers" deserves a bit of a proviso. It's not "the real numbers", per se: It's just the point below which "the real numbers" could not be.

[grandma]

the key here is to remain skeptical when acquiring such information.  there is so much to gain in swaying the public at large.  my point is that while a liberal source can proclaim an atrocity with millions dead and at the same time a conservative source can tell us that less than 5,000 are dead.  you can see how such a small quote can be easy to dismiss as bunk.  utilizing the same simple logic isnt it just as obvious that 1,000,000 dead must be a gross overstatement?  

@ lord of sayans: incredibly high by what standards?

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html - all of that happened in 6 years.  

war is about killing. please dont misunderstand me.  im not saying war is grand, iraq is good or that no one is dying in iraq.  these things are happening.  and all war is horror. but what is also happening is that the media is whipping our nation into a frenzied state. and for what?  so the votes come easier for the right person in '08?  so politicians can easily avoid REAL issues by spouting pavlovian drek?  "WAR MUST END" - how many votes does that net you these days, regardless on whatever else you may plan to do/not do during your 4 years. this is frenzy.  frenzy is never good.  Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. and yes i did just quote a puppet.  

[god_king]

war is about killing. please dont misunderstand me.  im not saying war is grand, iraq is good or that no one is dying in iraq.  these things are happening.  and all war is horror. but what is also happening is that the media is whipping our nation into a frenzied state. and for what?  so the votes come easier for the right person in '08?  so politicians can easily avoid REAL issues by spouting pavlovian drek?  "WAR MUST END" - how many votes does that net you these days, regardless on whatever else you may plan to do/not do during your 4 years. this is frenzy.  frenzy is never good.  Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. and yes i did just quote a puppet.  

You are right: All war is horror. This is why all civilized people should abhor it.

What I don't see in your words is any critical analysis of whether or not this war should be happening at all. Is there any just cause? Is there a valid causus beli? If there is not, then every single life lost is a murder, and every moment of violence is a crime.

I can see no just cause. I can see no valid reason why US soldiers continue to die in Iraq. I can see no reason why Iraqis should have to continue to fight and die against foreign occupiers. I can see no reason why either side should continue to spill their blood in a conflict that should never have begun.

I just want the suffering and death to stop.

I'm not an American. I don't live in America. This isn't about votes for me. This is about right and wrong. This war is wrong. This war has always been wrong. It will be wrong until the moment the last American soldier leaves Iraq to the Iraqis and returns to his family back home.

It will be a grave injustice until the day Bush and company face a war crimes tribuneral for the deaths they've caused in the name of arrogance and greed.

[Esq.]

the key here is to remain skeptical when acquiring such information.  there is so much to gain in swaying the public at large.  my point is that while a liberal source can proclaim an atrocity with millions dead and at the same time a conservative source can tell us that less than 5,000 are dead.  you can see how such a small quote can be easy to dismiss as bunk.  utilizing the same simple logic isnt it just as obvious that 1,000,000 dead must be a gross overstatement?  

@ lord of sayans: incredibly high by what standards?

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html - all of that happened in 6 years.  

war is about killing. please dont misunderstand me.  im not saying war is grand, iraq is good or that no one is dying in iraq.  these things are happening.  and all war is horror. but what is also happening is that the media is whipping our nation into a frenzied state. and for what?  so the votes come easier for the right person in '08?  so politicians can easily avoid REAL issues by spouting pavlovian drek?  "WAR MUST END" - how many votes does that net you these days, regardless on whatever else you may plan to do/not do during your 4 years. this is frenzy.  frenzy is never good.  Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. and yes i did just quote a puppet.  

Firstly, I don't think comparing this to the Second WORLD WAR is hardly even relevant. This is not on a global warfare scale. Secondly, these are human LIVES being lost, one person losing their life over this is TOO much. That was my point in posting that site. I look at those figures as more than just some numbers. They are NOT going to be the final numbers after all is said and done. Every DIGIT indicates a life lost. These are CONFIRMED deaths. We have NO idea how many have actually died. Lives are being lost as we speak, can you truly grasp that depth? Can you imagine what it's like to see something like this thru the eyes of a 5,6, or 10 year old? If that doesn't make you angry or upset, I would think something is seriously wrong with your mentality. These are human beings, just like you or me...DYING by the masses. Lastly, I am never so SIMPLE as to pick my vote off of a campaign run alone. I research my candidate thoroughly before I make a decision. I cannot speak for the rest of this country.

[Esq.]

war is about killing. please dont misunderstand me.  im not saying war is grand, iraq is good or that no one is dying in iraq.  these things are happening.  and all war is horror. but what is also happening is that the media is whipping our nation into a frenzied state. and for what?  so the votes come easier for the right person in '08?  so politicians can easily avoid REAL issues by spouting pavlovian drek?  "WAR MUST END" - how many votes does that net you these days, regardless on whatever else you may plan to do/not do during your 4 years. this is frenzy.  frenzy is never good.  Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. and yes i did just quote a puppet.  

You are right: All war is horror. This is why all civilized people should abhor it.

What I don't see in your words is any critical analysis of whether or not this war should be happening at all. Is there any just cause? Is there a valid causus beli? If there is not, then every single life lost is a murder, and every moment of violence is a crime.

I can see no just cause. I can see no valid reason why US soldiers continue to die in Iraq. I can see no reason why Iraqis should have to continue to fight and die against foreign occupiers. I can see no reason why either side should continue to spill their blood in a conflict that should never have begun.

I just want the suffering and death to stop.

I'm not an American. I don't live in America. This isn't about votes for me. This is about right and wrong. This war is wrong. This war has always been wrong. It will be wrong until the moment the last American soldier leaves Iraq to the Iraqis and returns to his family back home.

It will be a grave injustice until the day Bush and company face a war crimes tribuneral for the deaths they've caused in the name of arrogance and greed.

  I cannot find truer words than these. God bless the dead. f**k Bush.

[god_king]

Can you imagine what it's like to see something like this thru the eyes of a 5,6, or 10 year old? If that doesn't make you angry or upset, I would think something is seriously wrong with your mentality. These are human beings, just like you or me...DYING by the masses.

That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I know I don't really remember much before the age of five or so. This is true of most people. Now, this war has been going on for about five years, and is almost certainly going to continue at least until Bush is out of office in a year and change.

Imagine being a ten year old child in Iraq today. If their memories begin at around the age of five, then there has never been a time in their lives when they haven't been surrounded by horror and death that they can recall. All because of Bush and company deciding that they wanted what the Iraqis had.

No happy childhood. No peace and comfort. No memory of a life before the Americans started killing his people. A life in which blood and death and violence is the norm. Imagine what that boy will be like as an adult. Imagine the generation of hatred and violence to come in the next fifteen to twenty years because of this.

It's practically enough to bring tears to my eyes.

[grandma]

Firstly, I don't think comparing this to the Second WORLD WAR is hardly even relevant.

who said anything about compairison? you said the numbers in iraq were incredible. i was just giving you some scale.

This is not on a global warfare scale.

thanks for that, i didnt know

Secondly, these are human LIVES being lost, one person losing their life over this is TOO much.

agreed.  however, people were losing lives before we even got there.  ya know what i bet people will keep dying once were out too.  /:) things of this nature tend to occur in countries in turmoil.  like i mentioned earlier in the post check out places like croatia, the congo, the things that have happened to the armenians, etc it goes on and on.  google ethnic cleansing and see all the fun things that come up.  violence is a certainty when impatient people have differing opinions, when power is in the wrong hands.  do you really believe the killing will stop once outside forces leave iraq? think about that.  and i mean really think.  get to the core of this without just spouting some beligerent, vulgar anti-bush sentiment that is begining to have the same ring to it as heil hitler.  yeah im sure youll say im being dramatic by comparing your treasured (and well justified   ) "f*** bush" to a nazi slogan, but ask yourself how many people spout it blindly?  ever been to a rock concert where the lead singer is anti bush?  its frightening to see the crowd reaction.  insert a different sound byte and suddenly im in berlin and its '39.

 

Lives are being lost as we speak, can you truly grasp that depth? Can you imagine what it's like to see something like this thru the eyes of a 5,6, or 10 year old? If that doesn't make you angry or upset, I would think something is seriously wrong with your mentality.

my opinion differs from your's so obviously my mentality must be faulty.   OH NOES!!!!THOUGHT CRIME!!!11!!!
 

Lastly, I am never so SIMPLE as to pick my vote off of a campaign run alone. I research my candidate thoroughly before I make a decision.

im sure you do

God bless the dead. f**k Bush.

yea that sounds nothing like any of the campaign slogans ive heard

[TÐZ]

George Bush FTP!!!

[grandma]

Can you imagine what it's like to see something like this thru the eyes of a 5,6, or 10 year old? If that doesn't make you angry or upset, I would think something is seriously wrong with your mentality. These are human beings, just like you or me...DYING by the masses.

That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I know I don't really remember much before the age of five or so. This is true of most people. Now, this war has been going on for about five years, and is almost certainly going to continue at least until Bush is out of office in a year and change.

Imagine being a ten year old child in Iraq today. If their memories begin at around the age of five, then there has never been a time in their lives when they haven't been surrounded by horror and death that they can recall. All because of Bush and company deciding that they wanted what the Iraqis had.

No happy childhood. No peace and comfort. No memory of a life before the Americans started killing his people. A life in which blood and death and violence is the norm. Imagine what that boy will be like as an adult. Imagine the generation of hatred and violence to come in the next fifteen to twenty years because of this.

It's practically enough to bring tears to my eyes.

imagine a 20 year old man in iraq.  do you think his childhood memories are any fonder?  

[god_king]

imagine a 20 year old man in iraq.  do you think his childhood memories are any fonder?  

Yeah, probably. A time when they had clean running water, reliable electricity, a sound educational and health care system, and a monthly death toll about as large as the daily death toll now.

Compared to what things have been like since the Americans "liberated" them, it must seem like a paradise.

[dennis872005]

I can see no reason why Iraqis should have to continue to fight and die against foreign occupiers.

they were already killing each other so i dont see your point there.

[god_king]

agreed.  however, people were losing lives before we even got there.  ya know what i bet people will keep dying once were out too.  /:) things of this nature tend to occur in countries in turmoil.  like i mentioned earlier in the post check out places like croatia, the congo, the things that have happened to the armenians, etc it goes on and on.  google ethnic cleansing and see all the fun things that come up.  violence is a certainty when impatient people have differing opinions, when power is in the wrong hands.  do you really believe the killing will stop once outside forces leave iraq? think about that.  and i mean really think.  get to the core of this without just spouting some beligerent, vulgar anti-bush sentiment that is begining to have the same ring to it as heil hitler.  yeah im sure youll say im being dramatic by comparing your treasured (and well justified   ) "f*** bush" to a nazi slogan, but ask yourself how many people spout it blindly?  ever been to a rock concert where the lead singer is anti bush?  its frightening to see the crowd reaction.  insert a different sound byte and suddenly im in berlin and its '39.

This all sort of dodges around the core point:

What reason is there for American forces to remain there even one more day? What point is there in even one more person dying there? Tell me why this war shouldn't end right this moment.

[grandma]

imagine a 20 year old man in iraq.  do you think his childhood memories are any fonder?  

Yeah, probably. A time when they had clean running water, reliable electricity, a sound educational and health care system, and a monthly death toll about as large as the daily death toll now.

Compared to what things have been like since the Americans "liberated" them, it must seem like a paradise.

do you know of saddams secret police?  they would pull you from your home in the middle of the night and imprison you or just outright kill you without trial.  why you ask? opposing saddam.  insulting saddam.  do you think you would be able to get a good nights sleep knowing that?  a paradise with mass graves?  sounds more like hell to me.  people in iraq have had it bad for a very long time.

[god_king]

I can see no reason why Iraqis should have to continue to fight and die against foreign occupiers.

they were already killing each other so i dont see your point there.

This smacks of a non-sequitur to me.

If I understand your logic (and correct me if I'm wrong) what you're saying is "Because there have been acts of violence between different groups of Iraqis in the time prior to the invasion of their country by the Americans, the fact that they are now fighting to liberate their country by that occupying force is..."

No, I'm sorry, I can't construct a logical framework in which what you're saying makes sense. Can you please clarify your point for me?

[grandma]

agreed.  however, people were losing lives before we even got there.  ya know what i bet people will keep dying once were out too.  /:) things of this nature tend to occur in countries in turmoil.  like i mentioned earlier in the post check out places like croatia, the congo, the things that have happened to the armenians, etc it goes on and on.  google ethnic cleansing and see all the fun things that come up.  violence is a certainty when impatient people have differing opinions, when power is in the wrong hands.  do you really believe the killing will stop once outside forces leave iraq? think about that.  and i mean really think.  get to the core of this without just spouting some beligerent, vulgar anti-bush sentiment that is begining to have the same ring to it as heil hitler.  yeah im sure youll say im being dramatic by comparing your treasured (and well justified   ) "f*** bush" to a nazi slogan, but ask yourself how many people spout it blindly?  ever been to a rock concert where the lead singer is anti bush?  its frightening to see the crowd reaction.  insert a different sound byte and suddenly im in berlin and its '39.

This all sort of dodges around the core point:

What reason is there for American forces to remain there even one more day? What point is there in even one more person dying there? Tell me why this war shouldn't end right this moment.

i didnt say we shouldnt end the war.  i think we should.  im trying to say that americans arent the only reason people are dying in iraq (dennis hinted at what im talking about).  you seem to think that as soon as we're out things turn to smiles and sunshine.  i think iraq needs major help.  i dont think what were doing right now is good enough.  i dont think an army can provide the help iraq needs.  but i dont know what can. and i wont pretend like i do.  

[god_king]

do you know of saddams secret police?  they would pull you from your home in the middle of the night and imprison you or just outright kill you without trial.  why you ask? opposing saddam.  insulting saddam.  do you think you would be able to get a good nights sleep knowing that?  a paradise with mass graves?  sounds more like hell to me.  people in iraq have had it bad for a very long time.

Yep. I know of them. Over the course of 27 years, they killed about 600,000 people. In the 5 years since the Americans arrived, about twice that many people have died.

Doing the math, that means that people are now dying at about ten times the rate that they were under Hussein.

I have said it many times before, and I will say it again: Hussein was a monster. It should have been so easy to make things better in Iraq than they were when he was in charge. You have to be evil beyond words or incapable beyond measure in order to produce a situation which is actually WORSE than what that monster produced.

[god_king]

i didnt say we shouldnt end the war.  i think we should.  im trying to say that americans arent the only reason people are dying in iraq (dennis hinted at what im talking about).  you seem to think that as soon as we're out things turn to smiles and sunshine.  i think iraq needs major help.  i dont think what were doing right now is good enough.  i dont think an army can provide the help iraq needs.  but i dont know what can. and i wont pretend like i do.  

I think you're on your way to an important truth here. You're right: An army doesn't have the ability to fix things in Iraq. Unfortunately, the Americans are now so hated and so violently opposed in Iraq that their presence there is really only agitating things. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis have been saying for years now that they want the Americans gone immediately. If they've truly been "freed" or "liberated", then it's time to respect their wishes and go.

Let them settle their own differences. Let them get to work on rebuilding. As long as Americans are there, pointing guns at people and pillaging the country's resources, the violence will never end. Once the Americans are gone, the Iraqis can fight it out with each other until they're tuckered out, and then get to work on rebuilding their homes and neighborhoods. It's unpleasant, but it's what needs to happen.

[god_king]

George Bush FTP!!!

What does "FTP" stand for in this context?

[grandma]

i didnt say we shouldnt end the war.  i think we should.  im trying to say that americans arent the only reason people are dying in iraq (dennis hinted at what im talking about).  you seem to think that as soon as we're out things turn to smiles and sunshine.  i think iraq needs major help.  i dont think what were doing right now is good enough.  i dont think an army can provide the help iraq needs.  but i dont know what can. and i wont pretend like i do.  

I think you're on your way to an important truth here. You're right: An army doesn't have the ability to fix things in Iraq. Unfortunately, the Americans are now so hated and so violently opposed in Iraq that their presence there is really only agitating things. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis have been saying for years now that they want the Americans gone immediately. If they've truly been "freed" or "liberated", then it's time to respect their wishes and go.

Let them settle their own differences. Let them get to work on rebuilding. As long as Americans are there, pointing guns at people and pillaging the country's resources, the violence will never end. Once the Americans are gone, the Iraqis can fight it out with each other until they're tuckered out, and then get to work on rebuilding their homes and neighborhoods. It's unpleasant, but it's what needs to happen.

......what?  so this whole time youve been crying out against violence and in fact crying about what the children have had to go through on account of the american troops and now youre saying that the best option is just to let them "tucker themselves out"       so as long as killing is labeled with cute words its acceptable and necesisary.  well id love to continue this convo but ive seen that its become pointless gosh darn too much.  and boy am i ever flabbergasted tuckered out by your opinion.

[god_king]

......what?  so this whole time youve been crying out against violence and in fact crying about what the children have had to go through on account of the american troops and now youre saying that the best option is just to let them "tucker themselves out"       so as long as killing is labeled with cute words its acceptable and necesisary.  well id love to continue this convo but ive seen that its become pointless gosh darn too much.  and boy am i ever flabbergasted tuckered out by your opinion.

Alright. If you like.

If you'd prefer other terms, they're available. "Fight until they lose the will to do so", "Battle for turf until they reach an armistice", "make war on each other until one side or the other gets what they want". I honestly don't know for certain how it'll go. All I know is that, absent exploitative foreign occupiers, they'll fight with each other until they don't. If I had to place a bet, I would put money on it being like Vietnam: The Americans leave, the locals fight until a peace is reached, and then the rebuilding begins.

I'm saying that none of that begins until the Americans leave.

I'm also saying that the Americans' presence there - unjust, illegal, immoral and unjustifiable as it is - is the reason why this violence began in the first place.

But by all means. Duck out of the conversation if you wish. I will allow you your pretense that my choice of words invalidates every point I've made so far.

[grandma]

......what?  so this whole time youve been crying out against violence and in fact crying about what the children have had to go through on account of the american troops and now youre saying that the best option is just to let them "tucker themselves out"       so as long as killing is labeled with cute words its acceptable and necesisary.  well id love to continue this convo but ive seen that its become pointless gosh darn too much.  and boy am i ever flabbergasted tuckered out by your opinion.

Alright. If you like.

If you'd prefer other terms, they're available. "Fight until they lose the will to do so", "Battle for turf until they reach an armistice", "make war on each other until one side or the other gets what they want". I honestly don't know for certain how it'll go. All I know is that, absent exploitative foreign occupiers, they'll fight with each other until they don't. If I had to place a bet, I would put money on it being like Vietnam: The Americans leave, the locals fight until a peace is reached, and then the rebuilding begins.

I'm saying that none of that begins until the Americans leave.

I'm also saying that the Americans' presence there - unjust, illegal, immoral and unjustifiable as it is - is the reason why this violence began in the first place.

But by all means. Duck out of the conversation if you wish. I will allow you your pretense that my choice of words invalidates every point I've made so far.

sigh. your choice of words?  do you really not get it?  while your choice of words was cataclysmically poor, it paled in comparison to the actions you suggested we must accept.  furthermore, the stance you proposed was in completely incongruent with the stance you had been proporting all along.  now read this carefully and try not to let your attention wander.  you had been saying that american presence in iraq is a horrible, bloodsoaked massacre.  you also said that such actions are detestable and unconscionable.  NOW you say that the best alternative to this is just to let them kill each other until they get tired of it? and thatll be fine?  what about the children then?  and the postulation that this will end like vietnam is laughable. vietnam and iraq are completely different situations.  vietnam was based on a governmental revolution, the people rising up to alter the government to a way that better suited them.  the horrors in iraq (those that pre-date our arrival) are based on religious differences between the different muslim sects.  in vietnam the people got what they wanted and then they could chill.  in iraq what the people want is to completely obliterate opposing/differing religious groups.  here is the kicker.  you said that american forces are responsible for (according to you) millions of deaths and wreaking terror and havoc throughout the country.  and thats horrible (no ones arguing with you on the fact that this is horrible btw), do you not see the irony in your position being to let them kill each other till theyre satisfied? they will not be satisfied until the entire group opposing them is gone.  this is called genocide my friend.  but youre okay with that........

btw if you didnt get it from my rant...my beef is with your solution not your stance or your choice of words.


 

[Esq.]

@ grandma:     I can see that you're frustrated, but that's ok...because I was getting the feeling that you didn't really know what the hell you were talking about anyway.   I'm not even going to respond to most of the crap you said, because it's just that. bulls***.   You picked apart what I typed and threw your little funnies in between for what? I was trying not to talk about ya, but damn, you just had to provoke me didn't you? As I said in my other post, I can't speak for everyone else. So check this out, I said f**k Bush because that's how I feel. I don't like him, or any other idiot who's too thick between the brows to read between the lines. Oh, and just so you know, I do mean you grandma.   I never said because you felt differently that you were wrong, I was speaking in general terms. And how did you ever get the impression that I was saying 'once we leave, all the war stops.' That's as one-tracked as you are. It's stupid. I'M SAYING that we don't belong there, we had no right to take the role that we took, and yea, our being there sure helped them out .

i didnt say we shouldnt end the war.  i think we should.  im trying to say that americans arent the only reason people are dying in iraq (dennis hinted at what im talking about).  you seem to think that as soon as we're out things turn to smiles and sunshine.  i think iraq needs major help.  i dont think what were doing right now is good enough.  i dont think an army can provide the help iraq needs.  but i dont know what can. and i wont pretend like i do.  

I repeat myself, you're an idiot

[TÐZ]

George Bush FTP!!!

What does "FTP" stand for in this context?

Says it in there.
[youtube=425,350]xyF3IEuZj2k[/youtube]